How to make sourdough bread...

[MBMorgan]

Sorry I didnt comment on your post earlier... Today was my son's NFL Fantasy draft party that he hosted at his house. He decided I should be the cook for his party.🙈 I smoked pork butts, made red beans and rice, some chicken wings and a loaf of sourdough bread... I was busy.🙄

Nice recipe/formulation... For a beginner to attempt an 80% hydration dough is pushing the edge. Good on you!

Longer proofing time caused by a higher altitude... Hmmm... I'm not sure it was higher elevation. Might it have been the high percentage of your flour content being WW flour? Remember 50% of the flour in your starter is WW flour too. So you were approaching 50% WW flour.

You made the a wise decision to increase your hydration... WW flour consumes more water. I assume the loaf that passed the poke test in 1 hour was all bread flour, except the WW flour from your starter. This loaf was almost 50% WW flour. That's the only thing I can think of for the extended proofing time.🤔

WW bread is always denser than bread flour bread. The higher the WW flour % the denser it will get.

Oven spring... Could be a combination of intentionally over proofing and the high WW flour content, plus final shaping. Hard to say.

I like the way you're studying bread making. You're pushing the edge for a beginner. Tipping my hat to you MBMorgan 👍

As always, thanks for the feedback ... it's not expected but it is always deeply appreciated. Glad to hear that the NFL fantasy draft party was a success.

The recipe/formulation for this loaf was borrowed from Ken Forkish ... adapted by yours truly for using my poolish (he uses an 80% hydration levain) and for delayed overnight fermentation in the fridge. The 80% hydration dough was actually very easy to handle ... possibly because I decided to use his do-everything-in-a-tub method. Forkish prefers high-hydration doughs and his methods seem to be designed around that fact.

This bake was designed to explore a couple of problems I've been having that seem to be altitude related:

1. Rising/proofing rate - After more than a little sniffing around several sources of information, I've learned that at altitudes above 3000 ft., dough will rise/proof anywhere from 25% to 50% faster than at sea level. Since I'm above 6000 ft., I fall closer to the 50% number ... which means that dough will rise/proof in only about 2/3 the time that it will down at sea level.

This latest loaf confirms those numbers ... so I'll write this particular mystery off as "Solved".

2. Lack of rise overnight in the fridge - I'm not sure what's going on here. I used 10 grams of poolish in this loaf. Gluten structure formation was very good; the loaf was well formed; tension pulls seemed to be just fine.

As with previous attempts at delayed overnight fermentation in the fridge, the loaf exhibited little or no expansion ... even after 20 - 22 hours. After I removed it (in the banneton) in an attempt to let it come up to room temp., it still showed no signs of wanting to rise (even at 85 deg. F). There was really no way to give it more time due to problem #1 (rising/proofing rate); it basically passed the poke test as soon as it was out of the cold.

Next time, I'm going to try something that Forkish does. Like us, he uses a small amount of levain and lets his dough bulk ferment in the tub overnight ... but at room temperature rather than in the fridge. After 12-14 hours of bulk fermentation, he then forms his loaves and proofs them in a banneton until they pass the poke test, then bakes them.

Based on the high-altitude accelerated rising/proofing rate here in Colorado, that means I'm going to be looking at roughly 8 - 10 hours of bulk fermentation so I need to figure out a schedule that allows for a good night's sleep. This may not solve the problem ... but it's worth a shot ...

[RonB]

Thunder77 - I had another thought - try adding one or two tablespoons of vital wheat gluten to the recipe. It will help with the rise, but you may have to add a bit more water to compensate.

[Potkettleblack]

I had another dough fail at bulk fermentation, so I decided to walk before running. Forkish Overnight White, third bread in the book. white flour, water, salt, yeast. Overnight ferment, hour proof, cast iron pot, 475* with lid on for 30 minutes, lid off for 20. Winner.


So, the Forkish technique for avoiding blow out and not razoring is to put the seam side up.

[RonB]

Both the crust and crumb look great Potkettleblack. Way to go - er - bake.

[Breadhead]

Nice looking loaf Potkettleblack ...👍. Your crumb is fantastic!

[EdF]

Ooh, lookie that!

[Breadhead]

MBMorgan ...

"Next time, I'm going to try something that Forkish does. Like us, he uses a small amount of levain and lets his dough bulk ferment in the tub overnight ... but at room temperature rather than in the fridge. After 12-14 hours of bulk fermentation, he then forms his loaves and proofs them in a banneton until they pass the poke test, then bakes them."

Is Mr Forkish doing a pre-ferment with 1/2 of the flour and an equal amount of water, with a little starter? Or is he mixing the entire recipe together and letting it ferment overnight at room temp before forming and final shaping?

Ive done the pre-ferment with just half of the flour and an equal weight of water with very little starter. I let it ferment for 12/16 hours and then add the rest of the flour and enough water to bring it up to the hydration percentage that I want. I mix that to a shaggy state and autolyse it for a half hour. Then I add the salt and do the slap and folds, stretch and folds and final shaping. Then you can either put it in the fridge for an overnight nap or bake it after final proofing.

[MBMorgan]

[USER="8803"]Is Mr Forkish doing a pre-ferment with 1/2 of the flour and an equal amount of water, with a little starter? Or is he mixing the entire recipe together and letting it ferment overnight at room temp before forming and final shaping?

He has recipes and schedules for both methods ... overnight ferment of the entire recipe at room temp and the pre-ferment you describe. He also describes making quite a large poolish the night before then mixing, fermenting, proofing the next morning over about a 4-5 hr. period. I haven't decided which I'll try next but I'm sure I'll try them all before too long ... in addition to more of yours and Chef Jacob's recipes (must remember to BBQ something soon, too ) ...

[Breadhead]

Oh you can do both at the same time grasshopper.. For me... Doing a long low and slow cook in the smoker is the perfect time to make bread.👍 Watching a smoker for 12/16 hours is boring!

[RonB]

Thunder77 - another thought, (and I think I am out of thoughts for the week... LOL). I believe that Peter Reinhardt sez in at least one of his books that you will get a higher rise by machine kneading the dough because you get a better mix. All I can say is that I knead by machine until almost done and then finish by hand. That works for me - YMMV

[Breadhead]

I sometimes have been known to mix the dough in my KA mixer up until the kneading is done. Then I put it in a Pyrex mixing bowl for the bulk fermentation. Then I do the stretch & folds, tension tugs and final shaping by hand.😆 Don't tell any one, that's cheating.🙈

[gcdmd]

From Meathead's article, The Science of Salt:

"Pickling salt (a.k.a. canning salt) dissolves well in cold water so it is a good choice for brines. It lacks iodine and anti-caking additives, so it is the best choice for pickling."

Would it also be preferable for bread baking?

[Atalanta]

I use pickling salt when Kosher is too "heavy". Don't have any iodized salt in the house. Doesn't seem to have any negative effect on my baking.

[Breadhead]

Interesting... I have never considered that as an option. I use fine grain Sea salt though and it works well for me.

[JCBBQ]

Man! You guys are killing me with the pics of your loaves! I'm going to have to start doing this.

[MBMorgan]

Hah! That's how I first became entangled with this bread baking bunch ... you're doomed ... doomed, I say!

[JCBBQ]

MBMorgan, hahaha uh oh!

[Breadhead]

Man! You guys are killing me with the pics of your loaves! I'm going to have to start doing this.

Welcome to our sourdough bread baking club JCBBQ ...👍

There's a very short learning curve as you will find by reading the thread. Many have made very nice loaves of bread on their very first try.👍

This is the way bread was made 1000's of years ago before some chemist figured out how to dry yeast and put it in little 7 gram packets. It used to be that every family had someone that made this type of bread. Now... It's finding a revival after after about a 100 years of becoming a lost craft.

After you perfect the the processes and techniques you will blow your friends and family's minds with good old fashion Artisan Sourdough bread that they cannot buy anywhere else. Commercial bakers don't make this kind of bread because it takes to long. It slows down their production and they can't make a profit on it.

The good thing is it's just like BBQ... Very little hands on time goes into making it, it's mostly waiting for something to happen.

[Potkettleblack]

Breadhead and MBMorgan This loaf came from a desire to make any damn bread. That desire came from a second consecutive failure during bulk fermentation towards the Overnight Country Blonde from Forkish's book. I decided that, rather than take a third run at it and want to kill something (probably Alain Levain), I'd make one from the first chapter of recipes. Since I didn't like the idea of the 75% overnight whole wheat (and in retrospect, I could have tweaked that down to 25% or whatever the ratio was in Overnight Country Blonde), I went with Overnight White, as it was four basic ingredients, didn't use a pre-ferment or a levain, would be a good first step, like I'd initially planned but never got around to doing.

At any rate, giving his constant problem with molds and his failure to produce anything, and my upcoming break from heavy carb consumption, I'm gonna put Alain out of his misery tonight. Vaguely sad about it, but he has it coming. Or I do, but I'm not about to put me out of my misery over 20# of flour with no bread.

My next step, likely for Thanksgiving, will be to do one of the pre-ferment recipes from the book, either one of the poolish ones or one of the biga ones. ONWB, the loaf above gave me more confidence in working my way up through the book, rather than starting towards the back. So, yeah, a preferment without the long attachment of a full starter, that's the next project. Then, the next bread will involve a new starter, who will be named Homer (because of the D'oh/dough double entendre), and some commercial yeast. And bread #4, assuming #'s 2 & 3 work as well as #1 did, will be a pure levain bread. Baby steps.

But yeah, BH, this was very satisfying and I got a very nice crumb... moist and light at the same time.

[Breadhead]

I'm grateful you're enjoying the learning process and not giving up.

Putting Alain Levain out of his misery...😒 RIP: Alain Levain.😂

[MBMorgan]

This loaf came from a desire to make any damn bread.

I feel your pain (and yes, pun intended ... sorry). I've had great results with same-day breads but haven't yet worked out how to successfully do an overnight ferment and/or proof yet. An added complication here is the altitude (6300 ft.) ... what fun ...

Like you, I plan to work systematically through various recipes and schedules until I find one or more that can be successfully adapted to baking in Colorado.

As a side note, when reading Ken Forkish's book, he said he considered several locations before settling on Portland. I find myself wishing he had gone with Boulder, CO instead because I could simply make the short drive and simply ask him.

Good luck with the low carb diet. I tried that once (the South Beach diet as I recall) and it ultimately just made me ill. Perhaps you'll have a more positive experience.

[Potkettleblack]

I have had great success before, losing 30-60 lbs on multiple occasions. And then, life changes or summer arrives.

[Breadhead]

MBMorgan ... These videos by Chef Jacob Burton will help you with your high altitude baking. These 3 videos I would suggest viewing them in the order he has them on this page. Watch the first and then scroll down to second, etc.

https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-v...ce-tips-tricks

He is in Truckee, Ca and bakes at 6000 feet elevation.

[MBMorgan]

MBMorgan ... These videos by Chef Jacob Burton will help you with your high altitude baking. These 3 videos I would suggest viewing them in the order he has them on this page. Watch the first and then scroll down to second, etc.

https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-v...ce-tips-tricks

He is in Truckee, Ca and bakes at 6000 feet elevation.

Thanks, Breadhead ... those are indeed good videos and I've watched them several times. Most of the high altitude tweaks are for high fat doughs (cakes, etc.). For lean breads here's what he has to say:

--------------------------------------
FOR LEAN DOUGH BREADS

In my experience, bread recipes don't usually need to be adjusted for altitude. But remember, everything rises faster at altitude, so if you're having issue with your bread, here are a few things to play around with:

• Because bread will rise and proof faster at altitude due to less atmospheric pressure, try slowing down the fermentation by placing it in a cooler room.
• Air at altitude is much drier, so be sure to cover your bread with plastic wrap during bulk fermentation and proofing to prevent if from drying out. For more in-depth information on bread baking, listen the Stella Culinary School Podcast starting at episode 19, and then watch the videos in our Bread Baking Video Index.
• If you're using commercial yeast and you find your bread is rising too quickly at altitude, try reducing the total amount of yeast by 25%.
• If you're having issues with your bread drying out at altitude, raise the hydration rate by about 5% based on the baker's percentage.

--------------------------------------

He doesn't quantify the effect of altitude on room temp rising/proofing (but I bet he could) ... but I think I've got one sorted out. It's those overnight ferments and/or proofs that are still giving me fits. I'll definitely resort to posting a question or two over at StellaCulinary.com to see what he or the other breadheads have to say.

Thanks again!

[Breadhead]

Great idea! I ask Chef Jacob questions all the time. He always explains them in a way that I can understand. He is a great teacher. He's making lots of bread at 6000 feet. I bet he can walk you through it quickly.

[MBMorgan]

Pretty happy with today's loaf:

This one is pretty much all Ken Forkish ... recipe, technique, and schedule. It's a White Bread with Poolish pre-ferment. The only change I made to his recipe is the poolish. He likes to make up a fresh all-white flour poolish the night before ... but I have a perfectly healthy 200g Chef Jacob-style 1/2 white + 1/2 whole wheat poolish that I adapted to the Forkish recipe. Basically, the afternoon before, instead of the usual dump-and-feed, I simply divided my poolish (Winnie) into two 100g portions. One got fed as usual and put back on the counter while the other got fed enough white bread flour and water to make the 500g poolish called for by the recipe. As a result, unlike Mr. Forbish, my loaf contains 50g of WW flour from the poolish instead of the 100% white in his. The resulting 75% hydration loaf is pretty awesome. Not surprisingly, at high altitude here in Colorado it bulk fermented and proofed quite a bit faster than it would have at sea level. Bulk fermentation took less than 3 hours and proofing slightly less than 1. Oven spring was excellent, the crumb is pretty darn light and airy, and just enough of the sourdough tang comes through to let you know what you're eating. You may notice that instead of scoring the loaf, I tried the Forkish technique of baking seam side up to control blowout ... and it worked perfectly.

And now the pics:

[MBMorgan]

Pequod - no scoring at all. Proofed seam side down in the banneton then baked seam side up and let nature take its course. I like it ...

[RonB]

This one looks great MBMorgan.

[scottranda]

Is the Forkish book on bread worth it? How many recipes do they have in there? MBMorgan

[Breadhead]

Fantastic loaf MBMorgan ... Great post & pictures too. I love, love love the color of your crust too. I can feel the crunch of the crust in my mouth just looking at it. What was the total weight of the flour in your recipe? High altitude fermentation and proofing is really cool. Great job.