How to make sourdough bread...

[Thunder77]

Ok, question for the group. I recently found this recipe on KA website. To my math, it works out to be a 58.6% hydration dough. That seems super low to me. Also, the recipe calls for AP flour. the formula:
227 g starter.
340 g water
11 g yeast.
659 g flour
2 teaspoon salt
50 g olive oil.
My research indicated that oil is not part of the hydration calculation, so: given that I have 100% hydration starter, it works out to:
773 g flour (659+114 from starter)
453 g water 340 + 113 from starter)
453/753= 58.6%

Has anyone made a dough like this? I guess the oil would help somewhat. I was thinking of making this into a 70% hydration dough, and see how that works. I would also use bread flour, not AP flour. Thoughts?

[Breadhead]

Ok, question for the group. I recently found this recipe on KA website. To my math, it works out to be a 58.6% hydration dough. That seems super low to me. Also, the recipe calls for AP flour. the formula:
227 g starter.
340 g water
11 g yeast.
659 g flour
2 teaspoon salt
50 g olive oil.
My research indicated that oil is not part of the hydration calculation, so: given that I have 100% hydration starter, it works out to:
773 g flour (659+114 from starter)
453 g water 340 + 113 from starter)
453/753= 58.6%

Has anyone made a dough like this? I guess the oil would help somewhat. I was thinking of making this into a 70% hydration dough, and see how that works. I would also use bread flour, not AP flour. Thoughts?

Hmmm... what are you trying to make? It looks like a thin crust pizza dough recipe to me.🤔

Some things are best made with a lower protein flour. The olive oil goes into the Fat category of a bread recipe/formula, not hydration. That much starter AND 11g of yeast is enough to rise a boat load of flour. They want to make this dough real quick. 59% hydration is common in Neapolitan dough for pizza. However... traditionally, Neapolitan pizza is baked at 800/900 degrees and AP flour will burn quickly at that temperature.

It appears to me they are trying to create a Faux Neapolitan type dough that can be baked at a lower temperature.🤔 If it's a pizza dough recipe cooked at 470° to 550° the AP flour or bread flour is ok.

Personally I like 66% to 70% hydration for low temperature pizza dough if I'm going to bake it at 550°, which is as hot as most kitchen ovens will get. If I'm going to bake it hot, 800° to 900° on my BGE I will use "00" pizza flour with 59% hydration.

[Breadhead]

magic sourdough? Oh my.😆 I must say that is the oddest looking sourdough recipe/formula I've ever seen... scratching my head. With 11 grams of yeast in it it's hard to vision it as sourdough. The magic must have been how fast it rose.🙄 You were wise to leave the oil out.👍

[Thunder77]

I thought the formula odd myself. The method does call for a preferment though. You mix starter, yeast water, and half the flour for the preferment. Still, it's hard to imagine good structure with 58% hydration.

[Breadhead]

The lowest hydration I've ever used for sourdough bread is 66%. I get using small amounts of yeast in the final mix of prefermented dough but 11g seems like a whole lot to me. At 59% hydration it must have been pretty dense but I bet it still tasted pretty good.😋

[Breadhead]

Today's loaf...

formula:
500g bread flour
200g sourdough starter
320g water
12g salt
A 70% hydration dough...

I mixed it yesterday... using Chef Jacob's techniques, mix, autolyse, slap and folds and then put it in the fridge for the overnight fermentation process. Today I took it out of the fridge and let it rise to double its mass. Then I did the stretch and folds and final shaping. I baked it in the BGE at 500° with the SS mixing bowl technique for steam. All came out well.😎

[Thunder77]

I would say I have to agree! All did come out well.

[Breadhead]

Some of today's loaves...😎 There's more.😁

Formula:
1000g bread flour
750g water
10g sourdough starter
20 g salt

Preferment:
500g bread flour
500g water
10g sourdough starter
Mix together and leave on the counter top at about 70° room temperature for 14 hours.

Final dough mix:
500g bread flour
250g water
20g salt... added after the autolyse, during the stretch and folds.

Once the stretch and folds gave me a good window pain test I put the dough in my bulk fermentation container and put it in the fridge to delay the fermentation overnight.

Today I took it out of the fridge at 8:00am and then took my dog (Da Boz) out for his morning run, next to my electric bike. I met some friends for our morning coffee chat. The Hilldabeast is not popular in those meetings.😡

When I got home I took the dough out of the proofing container and did some stretch and folds and then final shaping. Then put the final shaped dough in the banneton's and preheated the BGE.👍

20 minutes before putting the first loaf on the baking stone... I put the other banneton in the fridge to make sure it didn't over proof.👍

I'm happy with both loaves. I love the big ear on the boule and I'm sad there's no ear on the batard loaf. All came out nicely.😎

[Thunder77]

I am guessing that the Hilldabeast is your electric bike?

[Breadhead]

No... the Hilldabeast is Hillary Clinton.😡

[Thunder77]

Ok. I can see why that would be an unwelcome topic!

[Breadhead]

Today's other loaves... not sourdough.🙈

This is an 80% Biga loaf.🙀

Formula:
1000g bread flour
750g water
22g salt
3G instant yeast.

Preferment:
800g bread flour
544g water
1g instant yeast
I mixed it together and left it on the counter top overnight.

Final dough: I added into the Biga...
200g flour... I ran out of bread flour so it was 109 grams BF and 81g WW.👌
206g water
2g instant yeast
I mixed everything together and did 3 folds 20 minutes apart. Then after it got 2.5 times it's mass I portioned into 2 loaves and final shaped it.

Baking 4 loaves of bread on the same day in a BGE requires diligent timing to make sure none of your loaves get over proofed. Plus you have to worry about running out of lump when you're running it at 500° for about 4:5 hours... mission accomplished.😎

A friend asked if I would bake her a couple of loaves for her family gathering tomorrow night. I think they will like these loaves.👍

[Breadhead]

Today's loaves...😎

Prefermented sourdough ciabatta bread with 40% of the flour being Whole Wheat.

Formula:

800g total flour = 100%
680g water = 85%
8g sourdough starter = 1% of the weight of the total flour
20g Olive oil = 2.5%
16g salt = 2%
2g instant yeast... just a pinch.

Preferment:

400g flour (1/2 bread flour & 1/2 Whole Wheat flour)
400g water
8g sourdough starter
I mixed it together and let it ferment overnight at room temperature for 15 hours.

Final dough: I added
400g flour 50/50 BF/WW
280g water
2g instant yeast
16g salt (after the autolyse)
20g olive oil (after the autolyse)

I put the final dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer using my paddle attachment until all the dough was climbing the paddle and slapping the sides of the bowl, about 5 minutes. Then I inserted the bread hook and turned the mixer up too a high speed to knead it. When the dough climbed the dough hook and slapped the sides of the mixing bowl it was done kneading, about 5 minutes.

I put the dough in a rectangle shaped plastic proofing container and let it rise to triple it's mass. Then I divided it and shaped it as much as I could and put it in my couche to final proof while I preheated the BGE to 550°. That took about 45 minutes and the proofing was done, time to bake bread.

All went well...👍

[scottranda]

No scoring (with your lame) on top? Why not? Btw, Looks delicious!

[Breadhead]

You can't score an 85% hydration dough or it will collapse.🙀

[scottranda]

I'm making sourdough ciabatta at 80% hyrdration. It's just soooo wet and sloppy. I'm doing the forkish methods of pinching and folding (wetting my hands inbetween). Still trying to develop the gluten, it's just so wet. Any advise is helpful!

[Breadhead]

Yes... don't make Ciabatta bread by hand.🙈 You will be folding it forever. Preferment 1/2 of the flour and an equal amount of water and a pinch of starter for 16 hours. Then add the other water and flour mix just a little bit and autolyse for 30 minutes. Add the salt and fat.

[Breadhead]

Then put it in your kitchen aid mixing bowl and use your paddle. In about 5 minutes it will all be attached to the paddle. Replace the paddle with your dough hook and turn up the speed on your mixer. In about 5 minutes your dough will climb up the hook and slap the mixing bowl clean. Mixing done!

[scottranda]

Here's where I'm at right now:

The preferment:
5g starter
250g water
250g bread flour

After ~13 hours, I added:
247g bread flour
148g water
10g salt
13g bacon grease

This is 80% hydration.

I let it autolyse for 30 minutes, then I pinched and folded (per Forkish). After about 10 minutes, I folded the dough over and over (hand dipped in water). I did that about 4 times. It's still very sloppy dough.

I'm letting it bulk ferment for now for ~3 hours.

I plan to fold it 2 more times, then put it in a cloth-lined banneton (should I use bread flour or rice flour to line the cloth?). I'm expecting the dough to still be very sloppy. Should it be?

Then I plan to put it in the fridge for 6 hours, until I'm ready to bake tonight. Anything I'm missing? What am I doing wrong?

[Breadhead]

MBMorgan is correct, rice flour. I've never made Ciabatta dough by hand.🙈 I usually make 85% hydration dough for Ciabatta and doing that by hand would be a nightmare. I use my Kitchen Aid mixer.🙀 I can get it mixed in 10 minutes and put it in my proofing container quickly.😎

[Breadhead]

Transfering a 80% hydration dough by hand would be very difficult. Ciabatta dough after its final rise is very gassy and very delicate. If you lift it wrong you will deflate it.😡 I lift it out of my couche with a transfer board made for that step.

[MBMorgan]

should I use bread flour or rice flour to line the cloth?). I'm expecting the dough to still be very sloppy. Should it be?

Use rice flour ... bread flour will just act as glue ... especially for a dough that sloppy. My biggest challenge with high-hydration dough is getting the loaf shaped and transferred from the banneton into the DO for baking. I just baked one recently that simply wouldn't hold its shape after proofing, wouldn't cooperate with tension pulls, stuck to everything, and wanted to ooze out of my hands as I rushed it from banneton to DO.

Turned out OK ... a little dense but great when toasted:

[scottranda]

Thanks for the help. I did put it in the KA mixer after hand mixing didn't work. Helped a little, but it was still like a cake batter. I added some more flour to try to help. Helped some. It didn't climb the walls of the bowl, but I was running out of time. So, I put it in the fridge. Got back a few hours later. Baked it at 500 (didn't have time to use my Kamado). It looks good, but severely deflated. Perhaps when I plopped it from my banneton to the Dutch oven, it deflated. Used rice flour, so it didn't stick to the banneton. Thx for that advice.

I just have have a hard time imagining an 80% dough can have any sort of gluten structure. It's just so wet/sloppy! It's like cake batter. Unless I use the KA stand mixer 100%?

[Breadhead]

When ciabatta dough is done mixing... it is a thick batter. When it's done bulk fermenting it is still a thick batter. Shaping a Ciabatta loaf is not easy. The couche will help give it a basic shape. I even reshape my dough right after I put it on the baking stone.

[scottranda]

How do you do that when the stone is so hot? Breadhead

[Breadhead]

I use my metal bench scraper to make the outside edge look right.👍

[Breadhead]

Thanks for the help. I did put it in the KA mixer after hand mixing didn't work. Helped a little, but it was still like a cake batter. I added some more flour to try to help. Helped some. It didn't climb the walls of the bowl, but I was running out of time. So, I put it in the fridge. Got back a few hours later. Baked it at 500 (didn't have time to use my Kamado). It looks good, but severely deflated. Perhaps when I plopped it from my banneton to the Dutch oven, it deflated. Used rice flour, so it didn't stick to the banneton. Thx for that advice.

I just have have a hard time imagining an 80% dough can have any sort of gluten structure. It's just so wet/sloppy! It's like cake batter. Unless I use the KA stand mixer 100%?

Mixing in the KA mixer... it's such a wet dough you're not going to damage your mixer running fast. With the paddle I run it at halfs speed. With the dough hook I run it at the second highest speed. Mixing takes about 10 minutes. When final mixing with the dough hook... once the dough has climbed the hook, completely, cleaned the sides and bottom of the mixing bowl, mixing is done.

I can make 75% hydration dough by hand... I prefer to make 80% or higher hydration dough in a mixer. Professional bakeries make everything in a mixer. Artisan bread makers make everything by hand. I'm... a half breed.😎 I always try to make things simple. Kneading high hydration dough by hand just doesn't meet my idea of simplisity.

Never add flower to a recipe/formula... when things aren't coming together, if you weighed your ingredients. Your problem is not the formula... your problem is technique. Think what can I do diffent before adding flour.

It's rare that you find bread bakers making Ciabatta bread as a boule... I've done it, but handling the dough in a banneton is not easy. Most ciabatta bread is done as a rectangle shape, a slipper shape, a bun, a batard shape. Most Ciabatta bread is final proofed in a couche, not a banneton. The reason for that is final proofed Ciabatta bread must be handled very delicately... or it will collapse.

I can make ciabatta bread, with commercial yeast in 4 hours, with a mixer. I can make prefermented Ciabatta bread in 20 hours, with a mixer. I can make kick ass sourdough Ciabatta bread with a preferment and delayed fermentation in the fridge in about 40 hours. The great part is... I get to pick what I want to do.

In view of the fact that I bake bread as a hobby and that I don't eat 5% of the bread I make... slowing things down, is much more interesting to me. At the end of the day... the greatest pleasure of bread baking, for me, is when I give a loaf to a friend, they say, damn!, this is fantastic bread.

Its hard to make bread that doesn't taste good. It's EXTREMELY difficult to bake a loaf of bread that comes out beautiful... to other bread bakers.

Creating the perfect loaf... is every bread bakers dream. That's not easy or repeatable. They just come along, every once in a while.👌

[scottranda]

Mixing in the KA mixer... it's such a wet dough you're not going to damage your mixer running fast. With the paddle I run it at halfs speed. With the dough hook I run it at the second highest speed. Mixing takes about 10 minutes. When final mixing with the dough hook... once the dough has climbed the hook, completely, cleaned the sides and bottom of the mixing bowl, mixing is done.

I can make 75% hydration dough by hand... I prefer to make 80% or higher hydration dough in a mixer. Professional bakeries make everything in a mixer. Artisan bread makers make everything by hand. I'm... a half breed.😎 I always try to make things simple. Kneading high hydration dough by hand just doesn't meet my idea of simplisity.

Never add flower to a recipe/formula... when things aren't coming together, if you weighed your ingredients. Your problem is not the formula... your problem is technique. Think what can I do diffent before adding flour.

It's rare that you find bread bakers making Ciabatta bread as a boule... I've done it, but handling the dough in a banneton is not easy. Most ciabatta bread is done as a rectangle shape, a slipper shape, a bun, a batard shape. Most Ciabatta bread is final proofed in a couche, not a banneton. The reason for that is final proofed Ciabatta bread must be handled very delicately... or it will collapse.

I can make ciabatta bread, with commercial yeast in 4 hours, with a mixer. I can make prefermented Ciabatta bread in 20 hours, with a mixer. I can make kick ass sourdough Ciabatta bread with a preferment and delayed fermentation in the fridge in about 40 hours. The great part is... I get to pick what I want to do.

In view of the fact that I bake bread as a hobby and that I don't eat 5% of the bread I make... slowing things down, is much more interesting to me. At the end of the day... the greatest pleasure of bread baking, for me, is when I give a loaf to a friend, they say, damn!, this is fantastic bread.

Its hard to make bread that doesn't taste good. It's EXTREMELY difficult to bake a loaf of bread that comes out beautiful... to other bread bakers.

Creating the perfect loaf... is every bread bakers dream. That's not easy or repeatable. They just come along, every once in a while.👌

Thanks Breadhead I'll have to try it again. I'm glad you all thought I was crazy for mixing 80% hydration by hand. I thought I was crazy too. I'm going to have to try the KA Stand Mixer.

By the way, you all are right (obviously). Prefermented bread tastes way better, and it's really not much more work. Just more time. I usually preferment before I go to bed, then wake up in the morning and finish making the bread. Bread by the afternoon/dinner. Can't beat it.

[Thunder77]

Wow! So I have had a few spectacular failures recently in the sourdough bread arena. I produced a few loaves of what my family was pleased to call "dwarf bread." (10 points if you get the reference) So having lost confidence in any developing skills I thought I had, I took a step back, and went with something I knew could succeed with: some good old yeast raised Pilgrim bread. It came out really well; everyone was pleased. A delicious loaf, with a slightly sweet, nutty flavor from a mixture of bread flour, cornmeal, whole wheat and rye flours.

[Breadhead]

Nice loaf of bread Thunder77 ... nothing better than having your friends and family enjoy your bread.👍

If you're weighing your sourdough ingredients and you're failing on developing your dough go to Chef Jacob's or Ken Forkish's videos and duplicate their techniques. Make the exact same recipe/formula many times until you master it. Technique, technique, technique is what makes it work.

[Breadhead]

Watch Chef Jacob's video again. Especially the final shaping step. Tugging the dough toward you. Getting that tight tension on your final shaped dough will give you more oven spring which will allow your scoring to open up better, which make your loaves beautiful.

[Thunder77]

I watched the video about 4300 times. I'm wondering if along the way I made a mistake with my starter and mis-wieghed something. My starter seems somewhat soupy.

[Breadhead]

If you're weighing your flour and water when feeding your starter that can't be a problem. A 100% hydration starter is fairly soupy. I made a comment awhile ago..."I'm more aggressive in the tension tugs than Chef Jacob is. I want the outer skin so tight I'm worried about tearing it".

[Mr. Bones]

Thunder77 Very Nice lookin' loaves! This looks/sounds like it could be my 'everyday' go-to bread, if you'd please be so kind as to share the receipt?
Pretty Please, w/ sugar on top? I need to get back to bakin' my own; this looks like the perfect excuse.

[Mr. Bones]

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