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How to make sourdough bread...

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  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 2

    Top | #451
    Originally posted by jgjeske1 View Post
    Ok, question for the group. I recently found this recipe on KA website. To my math, it works out to be a 58.6% hydration dough. That seems super low to me. Also, the recipe calls for AP flour. the formula:
    227 g starter.
    340 g water
    11 g yeast.
    659 g flour
    2 teaspoon salt
    50 g olive oil.
    My research indicated that oil is not part of the hydration calculation, so: given that I have 100% hydration starter, it works out to:
    773 g flour (659+114 from starter)
    453 g water 340 + 113 from starter)
    453/753= 58.6%

    Has anyone made a dough like this? I guess the oil would help somewhat. I was thinking of making this into a 70% hydration dough, and see how that works. I would also use bread flour, not AP flour. Thoughts?
    Hmmm... what are you trying to make? It looks like a thin crust pizza dough recipe to me.🤔

    Some things are best made with a lower protein flour. The olive oil goes into the Fat category of a bread recipe/formula, not hydration. That much starter AND 11g of yeast is enough to rise a boat load of flour. They want to make this dough real quick. 59% hydration is common in Neapolitan dough for pizza. However... traditionally, Neapolitan pizza is baked at 800/900 degrees and AP flour will burn quickly at that temperature.

    It appears to me they are trying to create a Faux Neapolitan type dough that can be baked at a lower temperature.🤔 If it's a pizza dough recipe cooked at 470° to 550° the AP flour or bread flour is ok.

    Personally I like 66% to 70% hydration for low temperature pizza dough if I'm going to bake it at 550°, which is as hot as most kitchen ovens will get. If I'm going to bake it hot, 800° to 900° on my BGE I will use "00" pizza flour with 59% hydration.

    Comment


    • Breadhead
      Breadhead commented
      Editing a comment
      magic sourdough? Oh my.😆 I must say that is the oddest looking sourdough recipe/formula I've ever seen... scratching my head. With 11 grams of yeast in it it's hard to vision it as sourdough. The magic must have been how fast it rose.🙄 You were wise to leave the oil out.👍

    • Thunder77
      Thunder77 commented
      Editing a comment
      I thought the formula odd myself. The method does call for a preferment though. You mix starter, yeast water, and half the flour for the preferment. Still, it's hard to imagine good structure with 58% hydration.

    • Breadhead
      Breadhead commented
      Editing a comment
      The lowest hydration I've ever used for sourdough bread is 66%. I get using small amounts of yeast in the final mix of prefermented dough but 11g seems like a whole lot to me. At 59% hydration it must have been pretty dense but I bet it still tasted pretty good.😋
  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 2

    Top | #452
    Today's loaf...

    formula:
    500g bread flour
    200g sourdough starter
    320g water
    12g salt
    A 70% hydration dough...

    I mixed it yesterday... using Chef Jacob's techniques, mix, autolyse, slap and folds and then put it in the fridge for the overnight fermentation process. Today I took it out of the fridge and let it rise to double its mass. Then I did the stretch and folds and final shaping. I baked it in the BGE at 500° with the SS mixing bowl technique for steam. All came out well.😎
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • Thunder77
      Thunder77 commented
      Editing a comment
      I would say I have to agree! All did come out well.
  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 2

    Top | #453
    Some of today's loaves...😎 There's more.😁

    Formula:
    1000g bread flour
    750g water
    10g sourdough starter
    20 g salt

    Preferment:
    500g bread flour
    500g water
    10g sourdough starter
    Mix together and leave on the counter top at about 70° room temperature for 14 hours.

    Final dough mix:
    500g bread flour
    250g water
    20g salt... added after the autolyse, during the stretch and folds.

    Once the stretch and folds gave me a good window pain test I put the dough in my bulk fermentation container and put it in the fridge to delay the fermentation overnight.

    Today I took it out of the fridge at 8:00am and then took my dog (Da Boz) out for his morning run, next to my electric bike.😉 I met some friends for our morning coffee chat. The Hilldabeast is not popular in those meetings.😡

    When I got home I took the dough out of the proofing container and did some stretch and folds and then final shaping. Then put the final shaped dough in the banneton's and preheated the BGE.👍

    20 minutes before putting the first loaf on the baking stone... I put the other banneton in the fridge to make sure it didn't over proof.👍

    I'm happy with both loaves. I love the big ear on the boule and I'm sad there's no ear on the batard loaf. All came out nicely.😎
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Breadhead; October 26th, 2016, 05:09 PM.

    Comment


    • Thunder77
      Thunder77 commented
      Editing a comment
      I am guessing that the Hilldabeast is your electric bike?

    • Breadhead
      Breadhead commented
      Editing a comment
      No... the Hilldabeast is Hillary Clinton.😡

    • Thunder77
      Thunder77 commented
      Editing a comment
      Ok. I can see why that would be an unwelcome topic!
  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 2

    Top | #454
    Today's other loaves... not sourdough.🙈

    This is an 80% Biga loaf.🙀

    Formula:
    1000g bread flour
    750g water
    22g salt
    3G instant yeast.

    Preferment:
    800g bread flour
    544g water
    1g instant yeast
    I mixed it together and left it on the counter top overnight.

    Final dough: I added into the Biga...
    200g flour... I ran out of bread flour so it was 109 grams BF and 81g WW.👌
    206g water
    2g instant yeast
    I mixed everything together and did 3 folds 20 minutes apart. Then after it got 2.5 times it's mass I portioned into 2 loaves and final shaped it.

    Baking 4 loaves of bread on the same day in a BGE requires diligent timing to make sure none of your loaves get over proofed. Plus you have to worry about running out of lump when you're running it at 500° for about 4:5 hours... mission accomplished.😎

    A friend asked if I would bake her a couple of loaves for her family gathering tomorrow night. I think they will like these loaves.👍
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • Breadhead
      Banned Former Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 2

      Top | #455
      Today's loaves...😎

      Prefermented sourdough ciabatta bread with 40% of the flour being Whole Wheat.

      Formula:

      800g total flour = 100%
      680g water = 85%
      8g sourdough starter = 1% of the weight of the total flour
      20g Olive oil = 2.5%
      16g salt = 2%
      2g instant yeast... just a pinch.

      Preferment:

      400g flour (1/2 bread flour & 1/2 Whole Wheat flour)
      400g water
      8g sourdough starter
      I mixed it together and let it ferment overnight at room temperature for 15 hours.

      Final dough: I added
      400g flour 50/50 BF/WW
      280g water
      2g instant yeast
      16g salt (after the autolyse)
      20g olive oil (after the autolyse)

      I put the final dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer using my paddle attachment until all the dough was climbing the paddle and slapping the sides of the bowl, about 5 minutes. Then I inserted the bread hook and turned the mixer up too a high speed to knead it. When the dough climbed the dough hook and slapped the sides of the mixing bowl it was done kneading, about 5 minutes.

      I put the dough in a rectangle shaped plastic proofing container and let it rise to triple it's mass. Then I divided it and shaped it as much as I could and put it in my couche to final proof while I preheated the BGE to 550°. That took about 45 minutes and the proofing was done, time to bake bread.😉

      All went well...👍
      Attached Files

      Comment


      • scottranda
        scottranda commented
        Editing a comment
        No scoring (with your lame) on top? Why not? Btw, Looks delicious!

      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        You can't score an 85% hydration dough or it will collapse.🙀
    • scottranda
      Charter Member
      • May 2015
      • 1451
      • Charlotte, NC

      Top | #456
      I'm making sourdough ciabatta at 80% hyrdration. It's just soooo wet and sloppy. I'm doing the forkish methods of pinching and folding (wetting my hands inbetween). Still trying to develop the gluten, it's just so wet. Any advise is helpful!

      Comment


      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes... don't make Ciabatta bread by hand.🙈 You will be folding it forever. Preferment 1/2 of the flour and an equal amount of water and a pinch of starter for 16 hours. Then add the other water and flour mix just a little bit and autolyse for 30 minutes. Add the salt and fat.

      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Then put it in your kitchen aid mixing bowl and use your paddle. In about 5 minutes it will all be attached to the paddle. Replace the paddle with your dough hook and turn up the speed on your mixer. In about 5 minutes your dough will climb up the hook and slap the mixing bowl clean. Mixing done!
    • scottranda
      Charter Member
      • May 2015
      • 1451
      • Charlotte, NC

      Top | #457
      Here's where I'm at right now:

      The preferment:
      5g starter
      250g water
      250g bread flour

      After ~13 hours, I added:
      247g bread flour
      148g water
      10g salt
      13g bacon grease

      This is 80% hydration.

      I let it autolyse for 30 minutes, then I pinched and folded (per Forkish). After about 10 minutes, I folded the dough over and over (hand dipped in water). I did that about 4 times. It's still very sloppy dough.

      I'm letting it bulk ferment for now for ~3 hours.

      I plan to fold it 2 more times, then put it in a cloth-lined banneton (should I use bread flour or rice flour to line the cloth?). I'm expecting the dough to still be very sloppy. Should it be?

      Then I plan to put it in the fridge for 6 hours, until I'm ready to bake tonight. Anything I'm missing? What am I doing wrong?

      Comment


      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Mbmorgan is correct, rice flour. I've never made Ciabatta dough by hand.🙈 I usually make 85% hydration dough for Ciabatta and doing that by hand would be a nightmare. I use my Kitchen Aid mixer.🙀 I can get it mixed in 10 minutes and put it in my proofing container quickly.😎

      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Transfering a 80% hydration dough by hand would be very difficult. Ciabatta dough after its final rise is very gassy and very delicate. If you lift it wrong you will deflate it.😡 I lift it out of my couche with a transfer board made for that step.
    • MBMorgan
      Club Member
      • Sep 2015
      • 5723
      • Colorado
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      Top | #458
      Originally posted by scottranda View Post
      should I use bread flour or rice flour to line the cloth?). I'm expecting the dough to still be very sloppy. Should it be?
      Use rice flour ... bread flour will just act as glue ... especially for a dough that sloppy. My biggest challenge with high-hydration dough is getting the loaf shaped and transferred from the banneton into the DO for baking. I just baked one recently that simply wouldn't hold its shape after proofing, wouldn't cooperate with tension pulls, stuck to everything, and wanted to ooze out of my hands as I rushed it from banneton to DO.

      Turned out OK ... a little dense but great when toasted:

      Click image for larger version

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      Click image for larger version

Name:	Loaf 20161024 - 2.JPG
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ID:	234548
      Last edited by MBMorgan; October 29th, 2016, 01:19 PM.

      Comment

      • scottranda
        Charter Member
        • May 2015
        • 1451
        • Charlotte, NC

        Top | #459
        Thanks for the help. I did put it in the KA mixer after hand mixing didn't work. Helped a little, but it was still like a cake batter. I added some more flour to try to help. Helped some. It didn't climb the walls of the bowl, but I was running out of time. So, I put it in the fridge. Got back a few hours later. Baked it at 500 (didn't have time to use my Kamado). It looks good, but severely deflated. Perhaps when I plopped it from my banneton to the Dutch oven, it deflated. Used rice flour, so it didn't stick to the banneton. Thx for that advice.

        I just have have a hard time imagining an 80% dough can have any sort of gluten structure. It's just so wet/sloppy! It's like cake batter. Unless I use the KA stand mixer 100%?
        Last edited by scottranda; October 29th, 2016, 07:02 PM.

        Comment


        • Breadhead
          Breadhead commented
          Editing a comment
          When ciabatta dough is done mixing... it is a thick batter. When it's done bulk fermenting it is still a thick batter. Shaping a Ciabatta loaf is not easy. The couche will help give it a basic shape. I even reshape my dough right after I put it on the baking stone.

        • scottranda
          scottranda commented
          Editing a comment
          How do you do that when the stone is so hot? Breadhead

        • Breadhead
          Breadhead commented
          Editing a comment
          I use my metal bench scraper to make the outside edge look right.👍
      • Breadhead
        Banned Former Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 2

        Top | #460
        Originally posted by scottranda View Post
        Thanks for the help. I did put it in the KA mixer after hand mixing didn't work. Helped a little, but it was still like a cake batter. I added some more flour to try to help. Helped some. It didn't climb the walls of the bowl, but I was running out of time. So, I put it in the fridge. Got back a few hours later. Baked it at 500 (didn't have time to use my Kamado). It looks good, but severely deflated. Perhaps when I plopped it from my banneton to the Dutch oven, it deflated. Used rice flour, so it didn't stick to the banneton. Thx for that advice.

        I just have have a hard time imagining an 80% dough can have any sort of gluten structure. It's just so wet/sloppy! It's like cake batter. Unless I use the KA stand mixer 100%?
        Mixing in the KA mixer... it's such a wet dough you're not going to damage your mixer running fast. With the paddle I run it at halfs speed. With the dough hook I run it at the second highest speed. Mixing takes about 10 minutes. When final mixing with the dough hook... once the dough has climbed the hook, completely, cleaned the sides and bottom of the mixing bowl, mixing is done.

        I can make 75% hydration dough by hand... I prefer to make 80% or higher hydration dough in a mixer. Professional bakeries make everything in a mixer. Artisan bread makers make everything by hand. I'm... a half breed.😎 I always try to make things simple. Kneading high hydration dough by hand just doesn't meet my idea of simplisity.

        Never add flower to a recipe/formula... when things aren't coming together, if you weighed your ingredients. Your problem is not the formula... your problem is technique. Think what can I do diffent before adding flour.

        It's rare that you find bread bakers making Ciabatta bread as a boule... I've done it, but handling the dough in a banneton is not easy. Most ciabatta bread is done as a rectangle shape, a slipper shape, a bun, a batard shape. Most Ciabatta bread is final proofed in a couche, not a banneton. The reason for that is final proofed Ciabatta bread must be handled very delicately... or it will collapse.

        I can make ciabatta bread, with commercial yeast in 4 hours, with a mixer. I can make prefermented Ciabatta bread in 20 hours, with a mixer. I can make kick ass sourdough Ciabatta bread with a preferment and delayed fermentation in the fridge in about 40 hours. The great part is... I get to pick what I want to do.

        In view of the fact that I bake bread as a hobby and that I don't eat 5% of the bread I make... slowing things down, is much more interesting to me. At the end of the day... the greatest pleasure of bread baking, for me, is when I give a loaf to a friend, they say, damn!, this is fantastic bread.

        Its hard to make bread that doesn't taste good. It's EXTREMELY difficult to bake a loaf of bread that comes out beautiful... to other bread bakers.

        Creating the perfect loaf... is every bread bakers dream. That's not easy or repeatable. They just come along, every once in a while.👌
        Last edited by Breadhead; October 29th, 2016, 10:42 PM.

        Comment

        • scottranda
          Charter Member
          • May 2015
          • 1451
          • Charlotte, NC

          Top | #461
          Originally posted by Breadhead View Post

          Mixing in the KA mixer... it's such a wet dough you're not going to damage your mixer running fast. With the paddle I run it at halfs speed. With the dough hook I run it at the second highest speed. Mixing takes about 10 minutes. When final mixing with the dough hook... once the dough has climbed the hook, completely, cleaned the sides and bottom of the mixing bowl, mixing is done.

          I can make 75% hydration dough by hand... I prefer to make 80% or higher hydration dough in a mixer. Professional bakeries make everything in a mixer. Artisan bread makers make everything by hand. I'm... a half breed.😎 I always try to make things simple. Kneading high hydration dough by hand just doesn't meet my idea of simplisity.

          Never add flower to a recipe/formula... when things aren't coming together, if you weighed your ingredients. Your problem is not the formula... your problem is technique. Think what can I do diffent before adding flour.

          It's rare that you find bread bakers making Ciabatta bread as a boule... I've done it, but handling the dough in a banneton is not easy. Most ciabatta bread is done as a rectangle shape, a slipper shape, a bun, a batard shape. Most Ciabatta bread is final proofed in a couche, not a banneton. The reason for that is final proofed Ciabatta bread must be handled very delicately... or it will collapse.

          I can make ciabatta bread, with commercial yeast in 4 hours, with a mixer. I can make prefermented Ciabatta bread in 20 hours, with a mixer. I can make kick ass sourdough Ciabatta bread with a preferment and delayed fermentation in the fridge in about 40 hours. The great part is... I get to pick what I want to do.

          In view of the fact that I bake bread as a hobby and that I don't eat 5% of the bread I make... slowing things down, is much more interesting to me. At the end of the day... the greatest pleasure of bread baking, for me, is when I give a loaf to a friend, they say, damn!, this is fantastic bread.

          Its hard to make bread that doesn't taste good. It's EXTREMELY difficult to bake a loaf of bread that comes out beautiful... to other bread bakers.

          Creating the perfect loaf... is every bread bakers dream. That's not easy or repeatable. They just come along, every once in a while.👌
          Thanks Breadhead I'll have to try it again. I'm glad you all thought I was crazy for mixing 80% hydration by hand. I thought I was crazy too. I'm going to have to try the KA Stand Mixer.

          By the way, you all are right (obviously). Prefermented bread tastes way better, and it's really not much more work. Just more time. I usually preferment before I go to bed, then wake up in the morning and finish making the bread. Bread by the afternoon/dinner. Can't beat it.

          Comment

          • Thunder77
            Founding Member
            • Jul 2014
            • 2568
            • Halethorpe, MD
            • Weber 22.5" Kettle with SnS Brinkmann 5 burner gasser. Akorn Kamado, and Akorn Jr kamado. Love grilling steaks, ribs, and chicken. Need to master smoked salmon Favorite cool weather beer: Sam Adams Octoberfest Favorite warm weather beer: Yuengling Traditional Lager All-time favorite drink: Single Malt Scotch

            Top | #462
            Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2952.JPG Views:	1 Size:	6.75 MB ID:	234973 Wow! So I have had a few spectacular failures recently in the sourdough bread arena. I produced a few loaves of what my family was pleased to call "dwarf bread." (10 points if you get the reference) So having lost confidence in any developing skills I thought I had, I took a step back, and went with something I knew could succeed with: some good old yeast raised Pilgrim bread. It came out really well; everyone was pleased. A delicious loaf, with a slightly sweet, nutty flavor from a mixture of bread flour, cornmeal, whole wheat and rye flours. Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2949.JPG Views:	1 Size:	6.23 MB ID:	234972
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            • Breadhead
              Banned Former Member
              • Jul 2014
              • 2

              Top | #463
              Nice loaf of bread jgjeske1 ... nothing better than having your friends and family enjoy your bread.👍

              If you're weighing your sourdough ingredients and you're failing on developing your dough go to Chef Jacob's or Ken Forkish's videos and duplicate their techniques. Make the exact same recipe/formula many times until you master it. Technique, technique, technique is what makes it work.

              Comment


              • Breadhead
                Breadhead commented
                Editing a comment
                Watch Chef Jacob's video again. Especially the final shaping step. Tugging the dough toward you. Getting that tight tension on your final shaped dough will give you more oven spring which will allow your scoring to open up better, which make your loaves beautiful.

              • Thunder77
                Thunder77 commented
                Editing a comment
                I watched the video about 4300 times. I'm wondering if along the way I made a mistake with my starter and mis-wieghed something. My starter seems somewhat soupy.

              • Breadhead
                Breadhead commented
                Editing a comment
                If you're weighing your flour and water when feeding your starter that can't be a problem. A 100% hydration starter is fairly soupy. I made a comment awhile ago..."I'm more aggressive in the tension tugs than Chef Jacob is. I want the outer skin so tight I'm worried about tearing it".
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              Top | #464
              jgjeske1 Very Nice lookin' loaves! This looks/sounds like it could be my 'everyday' go-to bread, if you'd please be so kind as to share the receipt?
              Pretty Please, w/ sugar on top? I need to get back to bakin' my own; this looks like the perfect excuse.

              Comment


              • Mr. Bones
                Mr. Bones commented
                Editing a comment
                Qsr? Qrs? De kc*rdr. Hw?
            • scottranda
              Charter Member
              • May 2015
              • 1451
              • Charlotte, NC

              Top | #465
              Originally posted by Breadhead View Post
              Not sourdough...

              Ciabatta bread in 4 hours flat...😎 Stand mixer with both the paddle and dough hook.
              • 800 grams bread flour = 100%
              • 640 grams water = 80%. (At 90°, I wanted to speed up the process.
              • 10 grams of instant yeast... that's a lot of yeast for 800 grams of flour, I wanted speed it up.👍
              • 16 grams salt = 2%
              • 20 grams olive oil = 2.5%
              Process:
              • In my Kitchen Aid mixing bowl I put in 640 grams of 90° water, added the yeast and the flour. You don't have to proof instant yeast.
              • I used my Danish dough hook to mix those ingredients to a shaggy mass and let it autolyse for 30 minutes.
              • I added the olive oil and the salt and used the paddle to mix everything together until the dough was stuck to the paddle.
              • I removed the paddle and inserted the dough hook and mixed at high speed until the dough climbed the dough hook and cleaned to sides of the bowl. About 10 minutes.
              • I transferred the dough to a rectangle proofing container to let it bulk ferment, rise. That took about an hour for it to double in mass.
              • I preheated the BGE to 550° after I took the dough out of the proofing container, portioned it, shaped it and put it in the couche.
              • When the pizza stone was at 500° I put the final proofed dough on the stone and let it cook at 550° for about 25 minutes.
              Next time im going to up the hydration to 85% to get a more open and airy crumb.🤔

              You can use this exact recipe/formula using your sourdough starter. Just don't use the yeast. Use your starter as the yeast and if you want to make it the same day use 200 grams of starter. If you want to make really kick ass sourdough Ciabatta bread, preferment half of the flour with an equal weight of water with just 5 grams of starter and then mix in the remaining ingredients. Then if you want to kick it up a notch... let it rise half way then put it in the fridge overnight.😉
              I'm eager to learn. Call me grasshopper. Thanks for allowing me to ask so many questions. So, I noticed in your description, you skipped letting it bulk ferment for 3-4 hours, then do final shaping and proofing (finger dent test). You call it bulk ferment for it to rise only one hour then goes straight in the oven/Kamado. So, would I also skip the 3-4 hour bulk ferment that I normally do with regular sourdough? Or, because you're speeding up the process with instant yeast, you don't need that extra fermenting time?

              Comment

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