How to make sourdough bread...

[Breadhead]

Willy commented
December 6th, 2016, 04:43 PM
A quick point of clarification--the yeast doesn't create the bacteria; the bacteria are separate wild species just like yeast and they get into the starter from the air, our hands, etc., just as does the yeast.

The wild yeast that invades your starter has no bacteria in it. The bacteria doesn't invade your starter like the yeast does. The flour and water that you mix together has all of the necessary chemicals to start the process once the wild yeast ignites the process. You flour contains natural sugar. The lactic acid bacteria in the flour consumes the sugar and its digestive content creates alcohol and Co2.

If you really want to totally understand the science to this entire process... here is the best article I've ever found on the subject. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/103...tion-sourdough

[Willy]

Agreed yeast has no bacteria. Disagree that bacteria doesn't "invade"; it invades from the environment and the flour. I've read Wink's article several times.

The reason that a new starter gets sour before it's able to leaven is due to the bacteria. The yeast takes longer to get established.

[Breadhead]

You might be correct... lactic acid bacteria is everywhere like wild yeast is. I'll have to reread the Wink article. My understanding is that the Wheat in the field has lactic acid on it plus it has natural sugar too. When it's processed those elements remain in the processed flour.

[Willy]

Breadhead The microbes are local, plus, I’m sure, in the flour you buy. Wild yeast is no doubt also in the flour. It’s the local ones that come to dominate. In San Francisco, one of the local strains of LAB is Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis, which is a producer of acetic acid which is what makes SF sourdoughs so tangy. Regrettably, my local LAB seems to produce more on the lactic acid end, though keeping Vinnie in the fridge has soured him somewhat. It’s funny, my first couple of loaves were quite sour, but whatever LAB was producing the sour has gradually been overcome by "gentler" microbes that tend towards lactic acid production.

I’ve often wondered if maybe using a tablespoon or two of vinegar (in place of water) might not help with tang. I’ll try that one day soon. BTW, since it’s the LAB that produce most of the flavor and since they need more time than the yeast to do their thing, that’s why I am not concerned about Vinnie being at his peak when I make a batch of dough. It just takes him a little longer and slow is the name of the game.

Thanks so much for all your help and advice in getting me started on this bread craze.

Addition: I just noticed that Peter Reinhart (in Crust and Crumb) makes two mistakes. First he refers to L. sanfranciscENSIS as L. sanfrancisCO and, second, he states that it is unique to San Francisco, which contradicts Wink, who says it is found worldwide. Apparently, it is a dominant microbe in San Francisco and, alas, not so dominant where I live.

[Thunder77]

Willy, I know that King Arthur Flour recommends adding some citric acid if you want a really sour flavor. I believe they even sell it.

[Willy]

Thunder77 Thanks for the tip!

[Breadhead]

Willy ... as you found out already, you can manipulate your starter to produce whatever strain of bacteria you desire.

If you leave your starter on your counter top both the lactic and acidic acid thive. Combined you end up with a very mild loaf of bread, barely a hint of ANY tang.

If your starter lives in 38° temperature the lactic acid bacteria goes almost dormant and the acidic acid thrives. With the right manipulation of your current starter with your local wild yeast I bet your can engineer that starter to produce a very tangy loaf of sourdough bread.

On your next feeding you ought to create another starter. One for the fridge and one for the counter top. It would be a fun experiment and you would learn a lot of fun stuff.

There are many bread bakers that have reproduced the San Francisco tang right here in Los Angeles. It just requires some basic science of how to have the acidic acid dominate your culture.

[Willy]

OK, here is a first crude experiment to help decipher (a tiny bit) bread cooking. The basic bread recipe:
--400 grams active poolish starter (passed the float test) –100 grams whole wheat flour, 100 grams bread flour, 200 grams water
--290 grams water
--550 grams bread flour
--1 tablespoon coarse sea salt
Autolyse for 30 minutes (flour and water only). Add 400 grams starter and salt, mix in KitchenAid with dough hook until it passes the window pane test—ten minutes total mix time.
Do three folds 10 minutes apart
Refrigerate overnight.
Bring to room temp and allow to rise more.
Do one more stretch and fold, then do a tension pull. Wait ten minutes and do another tension pull. Turn into floured banneton and let rise until it passes the finger test.
Put in 500° oven with pre-heated pizza stone and pre-heated stainless bowl. After 20 minutes, turn the heat down to 425°F, remove the bowl and continue to bake.

Data:
Time Color Weight (grams) Internal Temperature (°F)
0 ----- 1212 67
20 Whitish/blonde 1178 157
25 Tanning on ears 1148 192
30 Light browning 1128 200
40 Nice (medium) brown 1100 204
50 Done (dark brown) 1070 203
55 Done 1054 203
65 Overdone/black 1030 204

The two things that stand out to me are: 1) The "final" internal temp is reached long before the loaf is done. That temp is likely the local boiling point for water. 2) Crust formation does not impede moisture loss. Also, the crumb was still moist and edible.

I will do this test again and let the bread bake longer. I’ll also follow weight loss as the bread cools.

Sorry, but the data columns "unalign" when I post.

[MBMorgan]

OK, here is a first crude experiment to help decipher (a tiny bit) bread cooking. The basic bread recipe:
--400 grams active poolish starter (passed the float test) –100 grams whole wheat flour, 100 grams bread flour, 200 grams water
--290 grams water
--550 grams bread flour
--1 tablespoon coarse sea salt
Autolyse for 30 minutes (flour and water only). Add 400 grams starter and salt, mix in KitchenAid with dough hook until it passes the window pane test—ten minutes total mix time.
Do three folds 10 minutes apart
Refrigerate overnight.
Bring to room temp and allow to rise more.
Do one more stretch and fold, then do a tension pull. Wait ten minutes and do another tension pull. Turn into floured banneton and let rise until it passes the finger test.
Put in 500° oven with pre-heated pizza stone and pre-heated stainless bowl. After 20 minutes, turn the heat down to 425°F, remove the bowl and continue to bake.

Data:
Time Color Weight (grams) Internal Temperature (°F)
0 ----- 1212 67
20 Whitish/blonde 1178 157
25 Tanning on ears 1148 192
30 Light browning 1128 200
40 Nice (medium) brown 1100 204
50 Done (dark brown) 1070 203
55 Done 1054 203
65 Overdone/black 1030 204

The two things that stand out to me are: 1) The "final" internal temp is reached long before the loaf is done. That temp is likely the local boiling point for water. 2) Crust formation does not impede moisture loss. Also, the crumb was still moist and edible.

I will do this test again and let the bread bake longer. I’ll also follow weight loss as the bread cools.

Sorry, but the data columns "unalign" when I post.

Willy - what you are seeing with regard to internal temperature is 100% consistent with what I was reading on the Serious Eats site yesterday. According to them, at sea level, the IT simply cannot go above 210 F (just below the boiling point of water) until, presumably, no more water/steam is available in the loaf. Here at 6300 ft. msl in Colorado, my loaves shouldn't be able to get more than about 198 F (just below the 200 F boiling point at this altitude) ... and they don't (which is why I chose 195 F as a good IT below which I will keep on baking if the crust color will allow it). FWIW, I think of it as a sort of "stall" ... just like we see in pork butts, etc.

[Willy]

Makes perfect sense (I LOVE when that happens!). I usually read a bit lower (200°F) tho. I'm at 4,700 feet.

[Breadhead]

The interesting thing I see in your experiment is the the crumb is still good even when the crust is burnt. I learned long ago don't worry about the crumbs internal temperature, just cook to color. I like to get the blisters nice and pronounced and the color a dark golden brown.

[MBMorgan]

This week's science experiment(s):

Disclaimer: Due to technical difficulties (with me forgetting to take any) there aren't any useful pics to share.

Earlier in the week, I baked a Forkish-style "White Bread with Poolish" loaf ... modified to use my established poolish instead of Forkish's method of starting a poolish using commercial yeast. The dough was a problem. It was much gooier and stickier than any other 75% hydration dough has ever been before. It literally fought me every step of the way. That's the bad news.

The good news is that I tried a whole new baking setup that worked really well. Instead of baking in a Dutch oven as usual, I baked instead on a 14x14x0.25" baking steel and used my 7 qt. DO inverted as the "lid". Rather than risking scorched knuckles, I transferred the boule to and from the steel with a well floured wooden peel.

Everything worked perfectly ... except for the aforementioned gooey, sticky dough from hell. As soon as I jiggled it off the peel and onto the steel it changed shape from a boule to something resembling a frisbee. It spread out so far laterally that I was barely able to get the (hot!) DO to fit over it. The resulting loaf was actually pretty good ... decent crumb and excellent flavor (I was shooting for a mild sourdough tang ... and that's what I got). Vertical oven spring was minimal and lateral spring took the loaf all the way out to where it was touching the rather large DO all around.

As a result, I have completely rethought my baking technique and decided that an inverted DO "lid" is an excellent way to do it. However, instead of using the baking steel (it's my wife's pizza steel and she just won't keep it clean), I bought a Lodge 5 qt combo Dutch oven that should be just perfect for the job:

[Breadhead]

Nice...😆👍 I would try mounting a loaf on that skillet and put the DO on the top.

I've had high hydration dough lose it's shaping when putting it on the stone before.😡 You don't get the oven spring you want but it still tastes good.

[Willy]

I've been using Breadhead's idea, which is a pizza stone and a stainless steel bowl for the top. The SS bowl is much lighter and easier to handle than a DO. Add a metal cabinet pull to the outside top of the bowl and you're good to go.

[MBMorgan]

"I would try mounting a loaf on that skillet and put the DO on the top. "

That's the plan. FWIW, I discovered a few days ago that it seems to be the norm over at Serious Eats: http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/10/b...o-it-righ.html

In the future, I'll probably only use the DO "right side up" for baking seriously uncooperative high hydration dough.

[Breadhead]

High hydration dough does add challenges.🤔 That's why I suggested those that are just learning to start with a 65% hydration dough in this thread. Even moving from 65% hydration to 70% can be a challenge for most beginners. Then 75% and 80% can throw off experienced bakers.

[Thunder77]

71% hydration boule. Nothing special, except that I got a bit creative with my scoring. Good stuff! Family seems to have agreed, since there isn't much left. 😎

[MBMorgan]

Nicely done!

[Breadhead]

Oh my... nice job! It looks like you're getting a groove with your lame. Of all my long learning curve of baking bread, learning to score a loaf to get a pretty looking loaf like that was by far the most challenging. I like how the tips of the ears are slightly burnt and the blisters are great too. Again... nice work!

[Willy]

Breadhead I agree--scoring was surprisingly hard for me. I finally watched a video you posted and realized I was cutting too slowly. I'm still not great, but I'm doing OK now.

[Thunder77]

Willy, I'm still working on my batard scoring. One step at a time. :-)

[Breadhead]

Willy ... on a batard I make 1 long cut from end to end with my lame at a 35° angle. Stare at it before you stick your lame in it to plan your cut and move fast. You want to cut a flap not a groove.

[Willy]

OK, so I made a "real" (non-test) loaf today. I upped the hydration by 5% and my loaf is much flatter--haven't peeked at the crumb yet. The reason for this post is to report that the loaf lost 12 grams AFTER removal from the oven--over the space of about an hour. It went from 1076 grams upon removal to 1064 grams an hour later. I think the "crust stops moisture loss" claim can be filed with the "searing the steak prevents moisture loss" idea as a myth.

I'll also say my higher hydration skills are not quite (OK, far from) up to snuff.

[Breadhead]

You're probably right it doesn't stop it entirely but 12 grams is less than a 1/2 ounce. It does slow down the evaporation of the steam.

[MBMorgan]

I'll also say my higher hydration skills are not quite (OK, far from) up to snuff.

Yeah ... tension pulls in particular are a real bear when you get up into the 70+% range. I find that using a bench scraper and moving as quickly as possible really help ...

[Breadhead]

I also think having a real good window pane test during the mixing process is very important in high hydration dough. That will make preshaping and final shaping easier.

[scottranda]

70% hydration.

10% semolina flour, 90% bread flour.

I finally got my cambro proofing vessel (early Christmas gift). Helped tremendously get my proofing right. I was flying blind before.

Wife said it was my best yet!

[scottranda]

Thunder77 RonB THANKS GUYS!

[Breadhead]

That's a really nice crumb... it appears you got great oven spring.

[scottranda]

Thanks Breadhead ! Thanks to my new see through cambro proofing vessel, I'm not flying blind!! Now, I have no excuses!

[scottranda]

Let's talk about getting a nice crust. My crust is too soft. Like Breadhead said, I want crumbs to dust off the table.

How can I get a better/harder crust? Is it all temp? Air flow?

[Breadhead]

👍 on what Willy said.

[Willy]

Agreed with RonB regarding cooking to a darker color. Your loaf color is darned pretty, but a tad light colored compared to mine and to most of the photos posted herein. FWIW, I never leave my loaves in the oven when done--always straight to a cooling rack

[scottranda]

I bake mine covered for 20 minutes (yes, misting with water before). Then I bake to color, but perhaps I can leave it in a little longer. I'm just afraid of too dark, and burning it. I always go straight from oven to cooling rack (propping the bread up on its side).

[RonB]

scottranda - When the bread is done, do you leave it in the oven? That will help with a crisp crust. Just prop the oven door open an inch or two to cool. As the bread cools, moisture leaves the loaf and has to pass through the crust. That will soften the crust enough to destroy the crunch you are after but leaving it in the hot oven as it cools helps the moisture evaporate quickly preserving the crispness. Also, baking until the crust is darker wouldn't hurt either.

[scottranda]

I don't leave it in the oven. But, like you and others are saying, I need to leave it in the oven longer (uncovered). I guess I'm afraid of burning it. I'll experiment with my next loaf.

[RonB]

scottranda - It took me a while to get up enough nerve to leave the bread in the oven, but I'm glad I did because it does work. Just turn the oven off and crack the door. I don't leave bread on the baking stone or steel though. I move a rack one grove above the steel and put the bread on that.