Man this needs a sticky
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RonB is correct... You can convert ANY bread recipe you find in a cookbook or online from a yeast recipe into a sourdough recipe very easily.Originally posted by RonB View Post
All you do is eleminate the Dry Yeast and add some of your sourdough starter as a percentage of your flour and water.
Keep the total weight of the flour and water exactly the same as the recipe was written. Remember your starter is 50% flour & 50% water.
If the yeast recipe called for... A Ciabatta bread recipe:
500 grams bread flour
400 grams of water
15 grams of olive oil
10 grams of salt
7 grams of Dry yeast (1-packet)
To convert it to a sourdough Ciabatta bread recipe it would look like this:
400 grams bread flour
300 grams water
200 grams sourdough starter
15 grams olive oil
10 grams of salt
Just reduce the flour & water quantities and replace the exact amount with the flour & water in your starter. It's simple.π
The percentage of the flour and water you replace with your starter is very flexible. The more starter you use in the recipe the faster your dough will develop. The less starter you use the slower your dough will develop. Remember delayed fermentation dough tastes better.πLast edited by Breadhead; August 21, 2016, 11:19 PM.Comment
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Mold on the side of the starter container. Easily scraped off and discarded. Problem?Comment
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I would recommend pouring your starter into a cereal bowl without transferring the mold with it. Then wash/scrub your container clean and transfer your starter back into the clean container.
If it becomes a reoccurring problem start a new starter. I will say in all of my years of making and using starters I've never had a mold problem. Are you keeping your container sealed at all times except when you're feeding it or using it? It DOES NOT need to breath air. It produces Co2.Last edited by Breadhead; August 21, 2016, 11:25 PM.
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OK Breadhead - I've been mulling over the idea of starting another starter again with the goal of producing a mild, (not bitterOriginally posted by Breadhead View Post
), loaf. I have studied enough to know how to produce a mild vs tangy loaf using starter only. But I need to further than that. I want the flavor without the tang. So I am considering several approaches:
1 - use a small amount of very fresh starter plus a small amount of yeast to speed up unrefrigerated fermentation.
2 - use a small amount of very fresh starter for a long, unrefrigerated fermentation.
3 - use a large amount of very fresh starter for a faster unrefrigerated fermentation.
Do you think any of these could produce a very mild loaf that has the great flavor I am after?
The paradox is that longer fermentation produces more flavor, but also more tang...Last edited by RonB; August 22, 2016, 06:53 AM.Comment
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Pequod ...
Oh my... The sourdough God's blessed that loaf of bread! There's a great reward for going low and slow with sourdough, just like in BBQ.
The crumb is absolutely beautiful! Your final proofing was spot on. Had you waited 5 minutes longer to put that dough in the oven it would have been over proofed. I bet that loaf tasted outstanding. Great work my friend!!!
You've graduated to another level of bread baking. You're no longer a beginner. That's Artisan bread baking my friend.πComment
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Ron... The tang in your loaf comes DIRECTLY from the starter. If your starter is mild when you use it, extended fermentation won't increase the tang in your finished loaf at all. Extended fermentation has more to do with the flour in your dough, not the starter.Originally posted by RonB View Post
OK Breadhead - I've been mulling over the idea of starting another starter again with the goal of producing a mild, (not bitter ), loaf. I have studied enough to know how to produce a mild vs tangy loaf using starter only. But I need to further than that. I want the flavor without the tang. So I am considering several approaches:
1 - use a small amount of very fresh starter plus a small amount of yeast to speed up unrefrigerated fermentation.
2 - use a small amount of very fresh starter for a long, unrefrigerated fermentation.
3 - use a large amount of very fresh starter for a faster unrefrigerated fermentation.
Do you think any of these could produce a very mild loaf that has the great flavor I am after?
The paradox is that longer fermentation produces more flavor, but also more tang...
The tanginess of your starter is manipulated by retarding one of the bacteria in your starter while greatly enhancing the conditions for the other to thrive. That's a slow process and requires refrigeration.
To test this theory I would suggest you keep 2 starters. Use your current starter and after a dump & feed put it in 2 containers. Keep 1 on your counter top at room temperature and feed it daily. Then keep the other starter in your refrigerator and feed it every five days - give it a few weeks to develop. Before you use the refrigerated starter take it out of the fridge feed it and leave it out of the fridge overnight to bloom. Then mix your dough with it. Then feed it and put it back in the fridge.
Then make 2 loaves of bread using both starter. You can make same day bread or make delayed fermentation loaves. 1 will be mild and 1 will be tangy.π
Try that exercise it will be a fun learning experience and it will make you a starter expert.π
Side note... Regarding the 3 options you listed above.
1) Using commercial yeast in a sourdough recipe is a rookie move that would cause an uproar on a bread website.π
2) I think this option would give you a great loaf of bread.π
3) This option will produce what I call grocery store sourdough bread. It's ok but there's no love in this loaf. It's pretty much a wham-bam thank you ma'am loaf. Great for learning technique though.Last edited by Breadhead; August 22, 2016, 08:40 AM.Comment
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Thanx Breadhead . I haven't had a starter in several years, but I'm tempted to start another one so see if I can get a non-tangy batard. There is a pizza place the other side of town that uses sourdough for their pizza. It's not tangy, and suits my taste very well, so I do know that it can be done. -
If you maintain your starter in about 70Β° to 80Β° ambient temperature and feed it daily... It will be very mild. I would be surprised if you would taste any tang at all. I published a sourdough pizza dough recipe a while ago that make a really good pizza crust. You can bake that pizza at 500Β° to 650Β°
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Breadhead So here's some more questions for you, and the forum at large. I started a natural yeast culture about four days ago. The first two days were active with the starter both rising and bubbling. But days three and four have been eerily quiet. No rising, no bubbling action. Is this normal? For how long do you continue the dumping and feeding process before you admit to yourself that this whole thing needs to be dumped and its time to start over? As always, I really value your comments and the benefit of your experience.Comment
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Ray... That is a VERY common statement/question from a newbie that is trying to make their very first starter. The NORMAL reaction, dump it after 5 to 7 days, and admitting defeat is the very reason there is a mith that making a starter is so, so difficult and very technical. If you get on most bread website's, those that don't know what they are talking about will tell you to add unpeeled apples slices and all kinds of really counter productive stuff.Originally posted by Ray View Post
Heres the facts and nothing but the facts, so help me God.
You new sourdough culture is right on track. What you describe is exactly what I described would happen to your culture on day 3 or 4 early in this thread. Your starter is in the STALL.
On day 2 or 3 your culture will fully bloom making you think woohoo, I did it!!! But... It's faking you out. If you had tried the float test at that time your starter would have sunk like lead. So you did your very first dump and feed and your culture appeared to die on you.π‘ Again... It's faking you out. It's still very active underneath the surface, it has just changed missions. The 2 bacteria are now battling for position in the culture and killing any foreign yeast. They will fight that battle for about 5 to 7 days. There will be no bubbles during that battle. Then after that battle is won the bacteria in your culture will revert to what they normally do, eating and producing Co2 and alcohol and all of a sudden you will have a very bubbly, active and healthy sourdough starter that will pass the float test.
Patience grasshopper... Stay the course. Keep dumping & feeding daily. Your starter build is right on course.πComment
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Alain Levain moved from one cambro to the other yesterday. More fuzzy growing around the rim of original cambro, so I scraped the mold off, being very careful to not drop any into Alain. Then poured into the other cambro. He's looking a lot better last two days, and actually floated for a second before a big bubble burst and then he sank slowly. This weekend, pretty sure I'm gonna actually bake a bread.Comment
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First delayed fermentation experiment:
If I were to give this loaf a name, I would call it "Cathy Rigby" ... not for the famous gymnast but for my old friend Jack's favorite little pig, Cathy Rigby. That little piglet developed an escape technique that involved a running leap to hook it's front legs over the second rail of its pen followed by an acrobatic back flip to freedom (hence the piglet's name). Unfortunately, unlike the original human Cathy Rigby, the porcine version always ended in a face plant. This will make sense shortly ...
I used Breadhead 's recipe for simple sourdough:
600 grams of flour
400 grams of water
12 grams of salt
For delayed fermentation purposes, that translated into the following measurements:
590 grams bread flour
20 grams sourdough starter
390 grams water
12 grams salt
I followed Chef Jacob's process (modified for delayed fermentation) from his video:
Day 1
1. Float test - passed
2. Mix water, starter, and flour into a shaggy mass then autolyse for roughly 45 minutes - done
3. Salt - incorporated during slap and fold (too messy, I'll do this differently next time) - done
4. Slap and fold until the dough is cohesive and passes the window pane gluten structure test - done
5. Stretch and fold (lightly floured) a total of three times with a covered 10 min. bench rest after each - done
6. Form the loaf and place in a plastic-covered glass bowl for fermentation - done
7. Delayed fermentation - bowl and loaf put into refrigerator for 20 - 22 hours - done
Day 2
8. Released the dough from the bowl using bowl scraper. It was amazingly smooth and elastic
9. Stretch and fold 2 times (the first S&F was perfect; the second, the dough was hard and tough (hello gluten)
10. Tension pulls - multiple times (still fighting the hard and tough dough)
11. Bench rest - approximately 20 minutes, covered. The dough relaxed just a tiny bit.
12. More tension pulls followed by rounding the dough one more time.
13. Placed dough seam side up into floured (1/2 BF + 1/2 white rice) banneton then lightly floured the seam side
14. Proofed at 85 deg. until 1.5x original volume ... approx. 2 hours
15. Poke test - passed
==> Here comes the Cathy Rigby part:
16. The dough released perfectly from the floured and linen-lined banneton ... but when I attempted to place the dough into the 500 deg. DO, it stuck to my hand, did a half flip and landed top-down (note to self, flour both hands next time!)
17. Managed to upright the loaf in the DO using a couple of fish spatulas then docked it (it was a little flatter than normal)
18. Baked normally and let it cool for more than 2 hours before cutting.
The results:
Better than expected given the awkward gymnastics involved in getting the loaf into the DO. Taste was good but there was no sourdough tartness ... zip ... zero ... zilch. The dough was obviously under-proofed but, because I was most interested in the delayed fermentation's effect on its flavor, I'm not too worried about it and will let it proof longer next time.
Obviously, my post delayed-fermentation process needs to be tweaked a bit and I would appreciate any suggestions.
And now, to prove that all of the above really happened, here are the pics (but no list of obscenities used during the gymnastics phase):
Γ’β¬βΉΓ’β¬βΉΓ’β¬βΉΓ’β¬βΉΓ’β¬βΉΓ’β¬βΉΓ’β¬βΉ
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Potkettleblack - you might be right. I followed Breadhead 's most recent recipe (gotta start somewhere). Also, the starter is fed daily at room temp so it's pretty mild to start with. -
Potkettleblack ... 20 grams of starter for this type of loaf is a lot. 1% of the weight of the flour is good enough. 6 grams of starter would have been just fine. Guest make that loaf recently.π The intent is to slow the process down as much as possible to allow the flour to fully develop.Last edited by Breadhead; August 23, 2016, 02:27 PM.
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MBMorgan ... That was a fun read.π
You Sir are a fast learner. I'm impressed that you've learned so much so quick. Most beginning Breadhead's won't attempt a low starter content delayed fermentation loaf after only baking a few of loaves.
1 thing I can tell you for sure... That dough was not under proofed. You say it passed the poke test, that was my first clue. Those big holes in the middle of the crumb was my second clue. The gasses that form the holes in your dough will get bigger and bigger after they've reached perfect proofing. Your dough was over proofed, not under proofed. Doing the reshaping after the refrigerated bulk fermentation process condensed some of the big holes, not all of them obviously.
Question? Where did you get the instruction to place your finished dough into a plastic wrapped glass container to put it in the refrigerator for BULK delayed fermentation for 20/22 hours and then reshape it after taking it out of the fridge? I'm not questioning the length of time at all. It's bulk fermentation, at that step, and then reshaping it that I'm questioning.
On your next delayed fermentation loaf try this. Do everything exactly as you described on Day 1 (1-5) above right up until the bulk fermentation in the fridge step.
After the the stretch and folds and the final shaping with a couple of tension tugs so it's as tight as you can get it without tearing the outer skin... Put it in your banneton for the delayed fermentation. There is no need to reshape the dough after your delayed fermentation at all.
Take your dough out of the fridge 2 hours before you want to bake it. Start preheating your oven 30 minutes after you take your dough out of the fridge. Start doing the poke test 1 hour after it comes out of the fridge. It probably won't be ready to bake after just 60 minutes but I like to know where it's at anyway. You've only got about a 15 minute window for maintaining perfect proofing when your ambient temp is between 70 and 80 degrees.
Bake it as soon as it passes the poke test.π
I think eliminating that bulk fermentation after your dough is fully developed will give you a much easier and better loaf.πLast edited by Breadhead; August 25, 2016, 09:27 AM.Comment
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Thanks for the feedback! In answer to your question, I wasn't able to find any what-do-you-do-when-it-comes-out-of-the-cold instructions or procedures anywhere ... so I winged it and just resumed Chef Jacob's process from where I left off on day 1. Clearly that wasn't the way to do things. I even warned my wife that this one is likely to be an ugly baby ... but I had to get a feel for the delayed fermented bread flavor profile. I'll take your advice next time for sure...Originally posted by Breadhead View Post
FYI, the crumb had a sort of dense spongy texture that I figured must be due either to under proofing or to physical damage from me having dropped the poor thing onto its head in the DO. After what you've had to say, I'll change my story and blame it on a bad landing.
Thanks again!Comment
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scottranda - I'll clean it up a bit and get it to you. It's currently a MS Word document (.docx) but I can reformat it if you'd prefer. Just let me know via PM.
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Indoor bread baking today. I'm taking this loaf to a young (26 y/o) guy I met at the dog park. There's a group of us guys that meet every night at our favorite dog park, not really a dog park, but we made it one. It's a unique group of guys. They all love my BBQ stories and are lurking on AR as non members now. Soon to join on the 90 day free trial.π Plus... 3 of us are Breadhead's.π
This young guy has a bull dog/Labrador mix that is a cool dog. He got the retriever instinct from the lab as did my Labradoodle. So they've become ball retrieving buddies. The young guy is an entrepreneur that owns a sunglass company named DIFF. He launched his business online and recently sold Nordstrom's nationwide, all stores.
Last Night at our evening meet up he saw a loaf of sourdough bread I brought for another guy. He asked if I would bake a loaf form him, I said sure. Last night I mixed up this dough...
550 grams bread flour
100 grams sourdough starter
380 grams water
12 grams salt
a 70% hydration loaf.
I developed the dough up to the final shaping step, put it in the banneton overnight and baked it this afternoon in my convection oven. I'll give it to him the evening. He said he loves, loves, loves sourdough bread. I think I might have a new student. He asked how I learned it? I said it's easy to learn. Once you figure it out.
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I haven't messed with sourdough for a while, but from what I remember, the tangy microbes prefer a colder environment. I suggest keeping your starter in the refrigerator. I don't remember the details, but I'm sure Breadhead does...
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