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How to make sourdough bread...

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  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 0

    Tonight I'm going to a dinner party... French tapas is the theme. I figured I shouldn't go empty handed so I bought a nice bottle of wine and baked some sourdough bread.

    This is same day bread. I did 2 loaves, a boule & a batard. 1 loaf was 600 grams of flour and the other was 500 grams of flour. The batard banneton is smaller than the boule banneton.

    I started mixing the dough at 10:15am and finished baking the last loaf at 4:00pm. The kitchen was 74Β° all day. Things went fast.πŸ‘ Everything turned out well.
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • MBMorgan
      MBMorgan commented
      Editing a comment
      Very nice!

    • chudzikb
      chudzikb commented
      Editing a comment
      Just the master in action! Well done.

    • Breadhead
      Breadhead commented
      Editing a comment
      chudzikb ... I'm an advanced hobbiest baker of sourdough bread. Chef Jacob Burton won't claim to be a Master baker either. That means I have a long way to go before I could even think in those terms.πŸ™ˆ No one knows it all. Maybe Peter Rhinehart and a handful of others do but not guys like me.
  • RonB
    Club Member
    • Apr 2016
    • 12683
    • Near Richmond VA
    • Weber Performer Deluxe
      SNS
      Pizza insert
      Rotisserie
      Smokenator 1000
      Cookshack Smokette Elite
      2 Thermapens
      Chefalarm
      Dot
      lots of probes.
      CyberQ

    Lookin' very tasty to me.

    Comment

    • MBMorgan
      Club Member
      • Sep 2015
      • 6189
      • Colorado
      • > Weber Genesis EP-330
        > Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker
        > Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
        > WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative)
        > Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
        to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
        > Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
        > Thermoworks Smoke
        > 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
        > Thermoworks Thermapen
        > Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
        > Anova sous vide circulator
        > Searzall torch
        > BBQ Guru Rib Ring

        > Favorite Beer: Guinness Extra Stout, Fat Tire, Anchor Steam, or Alaskan Amber
        > Favorite Wine: Klinker Brick Old Ghost Zinfandel or Matetic Corralillo Winemaker's Blend
        > Favorite Whiskey: Balvenie Double Wood Scotch or Jameson Irish

      Winnie's gone to live in the fridge. We miss the sourdough tang so into the cold box he goes. It's Wednesday and Sunday "normal" dump and feeds from now on ...

      Comment


      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Some people keep one in the fridge and one on the counter top.
    • Potkettleblack
      Club Member
      • Jun 2016
      • 1961
      • Beautiful Downtown Berwyn
      • Grill: Grilla Original / Weber Genesis EP-330 / OK Joe Bronco Drum
        Thermometers: Thermapen / iGrill 2 / Fireboard
        For Smoke: Chunks / Pellet Tube / Mo Pouch
        Sous Vide: Joule / Nomiku WiFi (RIP Nomiku)
        Disqus: Le Chef - (something something something) - it changes

      Just as I was starting to lose faith, Alain Levain floated last night. This weekend, bread will be baked.

      Comment


      • Potkettleblack
        Potkettleblack commented
        Editing a comment
        But even after transferring, I have mold growing around the rim, away from the starter.

        My feeding process is to pour out the portion that I'm discarding, which tends to leave some thin starter on one side of the container.

      • Potkettleblack
        Potkettleblack commented
        Editing a comment
        I then measure in flour and water, mix with my index and middle finger kept tightly together (easier clean). I work most of what's on the wall down into the mix, but there's always some remnant, and then the mixing puts a bit more. It's the remnant that develops the fuzz.
    • Breadhead
      Banned Former Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 0

      Potkettleblack ... Congratulations on Alain Levain finally passing the float test!πŸ‘

      I use a plastic container with a snap on lid that gives lots of room to work the starter how I want to. I would advise you to mix it with a clean spoon. You never know what contamination can be on your fingers or under your nails. Any foreign bacteria that's introduced to the culture has to be fought off by the existing bacteria that's dominant in your starter. That distracts the dominate bacteria from doing what they are suppose to do. Eat from the flour and produce the Co2 and alcohol. That may in fact be the reason your starter took so long to pass the float test. Not sure on that but it's the only logical reason in my mind.

      Now that your starter is fully developed you no longer need to weigh out how much starter you're dumping out. Just hold your container over your garbage disposal and dump out ALL of the starter that will drip out. Leave only the amount that sticks to the bottom and the side of the container. Add the amount of flour and water your going to need for your next bread baking project, stir it with a spoon and then scrape the side of your container with a scraper to get it all down to the bottom. That may solve your mold problem too.

      Here a picture of my container and what I use to stir it and scrape down the edges of the container. I've NEVER had a mold problem.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Breadhead; August 25, 2016, 10:35 AM.

      Comment

      • Breadhead
        Banned Former Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 0

        Potkettleblack ...

        I just mixed 2 batches of dough for bread i'm going to bake this afternoon. After the dough was mixed to a shaggy consistency I dumped and feed my starter. Here's some pictures of what my container looks like after I dump it.

        I'll probably need about 400 grams of starter for tomorrow's bread so I put in 220 grams of flour and 220 grams of water and stirred it with a spoon. Then I scraped the wall of the container to move everything to the bottom of the container.

        There was probably about 20 grams of starter left in the container after I dumped it. I added 440 grams of flour and water so I'll have about 60 grams left after mixing tomorrow's dough, that I will feed so I have enough starter for the next days baking.
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • Breadhead
          Breadhead commented
          Editing a comment
          Cool... I think your mold problem will disappear. Scrape any mold out first though.

        • MBMorgan
          MBMorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          Potkettleblack - Actually, I think I'd recommend transferring your starter temporarily to another container while you clean and disinfect its normal 'home'. I'd be concerned that simply scraping is going to leave enough mold/spores behind to allow it to regenerate itself.

        • Breadhead
          Breadhead commented
          Editing a comment
          Great point Mbmorgan ... I agree!
      • Breadhead
        Banned Former Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 0

        Final loaf for this week... No Mas!

        Baked indoors again.

        It's a convection oven with a pizza stone that I preheat to 500Β° for an hour. I put the stainless steel mixing bowl on top of the pizza stone 15 minutes before I spray the dough with water and put it on the stone. My stone was 525Β° when I put the dough on. I baked it for 20 minutes under the SS bowl. Then I turn the temp down to 450Β° to brown the crust, that takes about 10 minutes but I rotate it 180Β° after 5 minutes.

        This loaf came out pretty nice...
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Breadhead; August 25, 2016, 08:34 PM.

        Comment


        • RonB
          RonB commented
          Editing a comment
          A very good looking boule Breadhead.
      • Breadhead
        Banned Former Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 0

        There's been a name change for this thread and I've revised some of the text to fit the name change. Steve Vojtek hasn't logged into the Pit for a long, long time so Huskee and I agreed that a name change might be appropriate.πŸ‘

        Comment


        • MBMorgan
          MBMorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          Makes perfect sense ...
      • MBMorgan
        Club Member
        • Sep 2015
        • 6189
        • Colorado
        • > Weber Genesis EP-330
          > Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker
          > Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
          > WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative)
          > Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
          to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
          > Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
          > Thermoworks Smoke
          > 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
          > Thermoworks Thermapen
          > Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
          > Anova sous vide circulator
          > Searzall torch
          > BBQ Guru Rib Ring

          > Favorite Beer: Guinness Extra Stout, Fat Tire, Anchor Steam, or Alaskan Amber
          > Favorite Wine: Klinker Brick Old Ghost Zinfandel or Matetic Corralillo Winemaker's Blend
          > Favorite Whiskey: Balvenie Double Wood Scotch or Jameson Irish

        Second delayed fermentation loaf ... a delicious door stop:

        No Cathy Rigby style gymnastics this time. Everything went perfectly (unless you count the under proofing issue).

        Day 1:
        • Same recipe as last time (tweaked for delayed fermentation):
          • 597g KAF bread flour
          • 397g water
          • 6g starter (100% hydration; 1% of total flour weight)
          • 12g Kosher salt
        • Float test - passed
        • Mixed then autolyse for 30 min.
        • Slap and fold for approx. 15-20 minutes until window pane test passed
        • Stretch and fold 3 times with 10-15 minute bench rests
        • Loaf formed and a couple of tension pulls performed
        • In a plastic-covered banneton, moved into 34 deg. fridge for delayed fermentation
        Day 2 (after 22 hours in the fridge):
        • 2 hours before baking - removed banneton from fridge & kept covered
        • 30 minutes later - preheated oven/DO to 500 deg.
        • 1 hour after removal from the fridge - started poke tests at approx. 10 min. intervals (this is where the wheels came off)
          • Almost immediately got a false positive poke test result due, I think, to the fact that even after an hour at room temp., that loaf was still really stiff and cold.
          • Not wanting to risk an over-proofed collapse in the oven, the loaf was transferred into the hot DO
        • Baked 20 minutes covered, then 40 minutes uncovered in the DO
          • Oven spring was nil
        • Cooled for a few hours then sliced
        • Results
          • As mentioned, oven spring was nil
          • Crumb was dense and spongy
          • There was a nice big tunnel through the middle
          • Taste was good ... but there was once again absolutely no sourdough tartness
        Question: Should the loaf be allowed to come up closer to room temp before baking ... perhaps to the point just shy of where the poke test is almost indicating over-proofing?

        Here's the evidence:

        Click image for larger version

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        Click image for larger version

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        Comment

        • Breadhead
          Banned Former Member
          • Jul 2014
          • 0

          Mbmorgan ...

          First of all I like your processes, steps, you laid out above. That's all well thought out and planned.

          You did get a little oven spring. The scoring opened up some. That means the loaf expanded some during the oven spring process. Admittedly not enough. Kudos on the scoring.

          Now lets figure out why you didn't get maximum oven spring.

          What causes a lack of oven spring.
          • Under developed dough.
          • Not enough steam during the oven spring process. The crust hardens to quickly and prevents the loaf from expanding.
          • Inadequate final shaping. Not enough tension on the dough. Possibly not sealing the bottom seam after placing it in the banneton.

          Under developed dough. Your dough passed the poke test, you think. I've rarely had a loaf pass the poke test after 60 minutes out of the fridge. However that big hole in the loaf has me scratching my head some. If I'm in doubt about the poke test for whatever reason I just give it a LITTLE more time and see if that hole rises slowly. If not, I bake it.

          Lack of steam in a DO is not possible because your dough has lots of water in it that needs to steam off at 500Β°. Strike that off.

          Not enough tension on the dough before putting it in your banneton for delayed fermentation and then final proofing. The VAST majority of the time this is the reason for little to no oven spring. You said you did a couple of tension pulls. Remember when I said put as much tension on the dough as you possibly can without tearing the outer skin? Give that careful consideration on your next loaf. Even if it takes 3 tension pulls, get lots of tension. Some guys even leave the dough uncovered on the bench after the second tension pull to let it develop a tight skin on the surface and then do one more TP.

          After you put your final shaped dough into the banneton, smooth side down, inspect the bottom surface of your dough and pinch together any holes to close the gaps that can allow the gasses to escape. I think I've failed to point that out in the past, my bad. I don't think Chef Jacob's video covers that detail either, not sure.

          On your next loaf give final shaping extra concentration.πŸ‘

          Lack of tanginess... More refrigerator time for Winnie the Polish.πŸ‘Œ That takes time to develop.

          Comment

          • MBMorgan
            Club Member
            • Sep 2015
            • 6189
            • Colorado
            • > Weber Genesis EP-330
              > Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker
              > Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
              > WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative)
              > Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
              to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
              > Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
              > Thermoworks Smoke
              > 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
              > Thermoworks Thermapen
              > Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
              > Anova sous vide circulator
              > Searzall torch
              > BBQ Guru Rib Ring

              > Favorite Beer: Guinness Extra Stout, Fat Tire, Anchor Steam, or Alaskan Amber
              > Favorite Wine: Klinker Brick Old Ghost Zinfandel or Matetic Corralillo Winemaker's Blend
              > Favorite Whiskey: Balvenie Double Wood Scotch or Jameson Irish

            Originally posted by Breadhead View Post
            that big hole in the loaf has me scratching my head some
            I've been researching this one quite a bit and apparently a big hole like that is most often attributed to baking an under developed loaf that still has way too much yeast activity in the middle ... more evidence pointing toward the need for considerably more time for final development once out of the fridge.

            Winnie's spending the week (or two) in cold storage to restore that missing tanginess.

            Once again, thanks for the excellent feedback!

            Comment

            • MBMorgan
              Club Member
              • Sep 2015
              • 6189
              • Colorado
              • > Weber Genesis EP-330
                > Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker
                > Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
                > WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative)
                > Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
                to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
                > Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
                > Thermoworks Smoke
                > 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
                > Thermoworks Thermapen
                > Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
                > Anova sous vide circulator
                > Searzall torch
                > BBQ Guru Rib Ring

                > Favorite Beer: Guinness Extra Stout, Fat Tire, Anchor Steam, or Alaskan Amber
                > Favorite Wine: Klinker Brick Old Ghost Zinfandel or Matetic Corralillo Winemaker's Blend
                > Favorite Whiskey: Balvenie Double Wood Scotch or Jameson Irish

              Originally posted by Breadhead View Post
              After you put your final shaped dough into the banneton, smooth side down, inspect the bottom surface of your dough and pinch together any holes to close the gaps that can allow the gasses to escape. I think I've failed to point that out in the past, my bad. I don't think Chef Jacob's video covers that detail either, not sure.
              I think that one of his videos (or it might have been one from Ken Forkish) talks about the need to seal the seam (so I do that) along with a warning not to get any flour into the seam in order to make sure it actually seals.

              Comment

              • Potkettleblack
                Club Member
                • Jun 2016
                • 1961
                • Beautiful Downtown Berwyn
                • Grill: Grilla Original / Weber Genesis EP-330 / OK Joe Bronco Drum
                  Thermometers: Thermapen / iGrill 2 / Fireboard
                  For Smoke: Chunks / Pellet Tube / Mo Pouch
                  Sous Vide: Joule / Nomiku WiFi (RIP Nomiku)
                  Disqus: Le Chef - (something something something) - it changes

                Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpeg
Views:	29
Size:	2.16 MB
ID:	214382

                Some work in progress.

                Comment


                • Breadhead
                  Breadhead commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Potkettleblack ... It might help to keep a log on your starter activity. Log what time you feed it. Then start doing the float test every hour starting at 4 hours after the feeding. Then log what hour your float test worked. That time will stay fairly consistent. Keep loging until it sinks.
                  Last edited by Breadhead; August 28, 2016, 04:46 PM.

                • Breadhead
                  Breadhead commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If you know how many hours after the feeding it will pass the float test and how many hours it stays active before it sinks, you will know how long of a window you have to use your starter per feeding. You only need to do that log once or twice.

                • Potkettleblack
                  Potkettleblack commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yep... This time, I kinda saw where it was, and thought I'd go ahead anyway... no good. Bad. An hour later, maybe an hour and a half, was in great shape, but had already done two folds.
              • Jon Solberg
                Former Member
                • Jul 2014
                • 4819

                Great more bread. : )

                Comment


                • Ray
                  Ray commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Cheers, Jon!

                • Breadhead
                  Breadhead commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Jon Solberg ... It's cool you're watching our bread baking party. Have you started making your starter yet?πŸ˜†

                  Your keys might be behind your bag of flour...???
              • Ray
                Ray
                Charter Member
                • Sep 2014
                • 222
                • Central IN
                • Ò€‹Green Mountain Davy Crockett pellet grill/smoker
                  Weber Summit Gas grill
                  Masterbuilt 30" electric smoker
                  Maverick ET-733
                  Thermapen
                  ThemoPop thermometer
                  Favorite beer: Fuller's ESB
                  Favorite cheap beer: Old Chub or Robert the Bruce if they are ever on sale.
                  Favorite wine: Cabernet Savignon, some Super Tuscans

                Breadhead SO the last time i checked in I was concerned about the starter that decided to trick me by stalling. But because of your council, I stayed the course and (of course, just as you said) it began show signs of life after a couple of days. Now I'm at the point of figuring out if this creature floats or not. As I read in this thread, you do the float test and if the teaspoon or tablespoon size of starter in a small container of water actually floats, its ready for prime time baking. Well, this guy floats for a little while then heads for the bottom of the glass. My question: Does the small quantity of starter float "indefinitely" to pass the test or just for a few seconds?

                Comment


                • Breadhead
                  Breadhead commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If it only floats for a few seconds... It's not ready for prime time! Give it one or 2 more dump & feeds, you're close. It takes so long to develop your dough it would be a shame to start a batch of dough that has no chance of being fantastic.

                  Patience grasshopper...πŸ˜‰

                • Ray
                  Ray commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks, Breadhead, I'll stay the course, as usual. Also, what hydration do you recommend for a predominately whole wheat bread? I'm using KAF whole grain whole wheat flour.

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