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How to make sourdough bread...

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  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 0

    #76
    chudzikb.

    Great job again! Look at that fantastic oven spring. That really is quite nice. I can't wait to see the crumb. Transferring from your proofing basket to the DO can be difficult. Watch Chef Jacob in the video. Sticky dough does not stick to wet hands. Putting flour on your hands works too.

    Every loaf should get a little easier as you keep repeating the process.
    Last edited by Breadhead; July 9, 2015, 10:22 PM.

    Comment

    • Breadhead
      Banned Former Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 0

      #77
      @chudzikb.

      The sourness of your loaf is mainly created in the structure of your starter, not so much in the bread recipe itself. The more acetic acid you can get you starter to produce, the more sour the resulting bread will become.

      The sourness of a given starter has a lot to do with the type of Lactic Acid Bacteria that it contains. Different forms of LAB prefer to metabolize certain sugars and produce more acetic acid than lactic acid. That is why the San Francisco strain is popular to people who like super sour loaves, because it is known for producing a good amount of acetic acid.

      Also, what you feed your starter and the storage temperature has an effect on your acetic acid productions. Whole wheat flour and a cold fermentation will produce more acetic acid than a warm fermented starter that is fed refined bread flour which will generally favor the production of lactic acid.

      Also, the longer it has been since your starter has been fed, the more acetic acid it will generally produce.

      So the idea is to create an environment within your starter that is already sour. Once you achieve this, cold ferment your bread dough for 12/24 hours in the fridge after you have final shaped it and put it in the banneton. Take it out of the fridge 1.5/2 hours before baking. Bake when the poke test tells you to. This should create a more sour loaf.

      Comment


      • chudzikb
        chudzikb commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you sir. Will try the techniques and see where they get me. Taste is not bad, just not what I am used to from the stores.
    • chudzikb
      Charter Member
      • Dec 2014
      • 184

      #78
      Just ate a piece, it was very good, different from the first one, the taste varied with the increased whole wheat. It is taking me around 9 hours from start to finish, not a lot of work in there, but, just over a long period of time. Click image for larger version

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      • Steve Vojtek
        Steve Vojtek commented
        Editing a comment
        Beautiful looking crumb. You're doing really well..

      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        @chudzikb.

        Woohoo! That my friend is what your crumb is supposed to look like. You baked that loaf at just the right time. Had you baked it a little earlier you would have got a denser crumb. Had you baked a little later you might have gotten bigger holes than you wanted.

        Your oven spring is really, really good. Both of your loaves have had exceptional over spring. That's unusual for a beginning baker. You don't probably know that but it is.

        It's really to bad you fumbled on transferring your dough to the DO because that is a PERFECT loaf of sourdough bread.

        It's time for you to recieve a Standing Ovation. It's that good!
        Last edited by Breadhead; July 10, 2015, 09:02 AM.
    • Steve Vojtek
      Charter Member
      • Mar 2015
      • 612
      • Melbourne Australia
      • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
        Diy electric smoker
        A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
        Gas powered pizza oven
        GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
        Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
        Slow'nSear - my favourite
        2 x Thermapens
        2 x wireless thermometers
        3 x wired thermometers
        Favourite drink:
        Scotch whiskey various brands
        American Honey WT
        And beer ....
        And at work just plain old chilled water....

      #79
      Results from last night. I must say i'm pleased with the result.
      I made a double batch of Chef Jacob's recipe and after the bulk ferment i split it into two halves and finished of with the final stretch and fold and tension pulls and final proofed them in their own bannetons. The slap and folds gave me a workout - i actually worked up a sweat! Phew! It took longer to develop the gluten than ever before. I have a question about developing the gluten in a minute. I still have to work on my oven spring but my crumb is getting much better. No more caves!!! Needs more work but getting better..
      My question: Can i overwork the gluten if i do the slap and folds too long? What effect would it have on the final outcome?

      Comment


      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Woohoo! The twins are beautiful. Great job Steve Vojtek! Wow you are really getting it. Your crumb is greatly improved. Are you getting the blisters on your dough during the final shaping process that chudzikb described?

        I love watching you progress in perfecting your loaves.
    • Breadhead
      Banned Former Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 0

      #80
      Steve Vojtek. "My question: Can i overwork the gluten if i do the slap and folds too long? What effect would it have on the final outcome?"

      Yes... You can over mix your dough. Using the slap and fold technique along with the window pane test that is highly unlikely. Simply because it will wear you out. Do the window pane test during the process and as soon as it passes that test move on to a few stretch and folds, tension tugs and final shaping. Over mixing can breakdown the gluten strands you're trying to develop. You will get a more dense crumb.

      I seriously hesitate to tell you this at this early stage of your learning curve. But I think you are at a point that you know how long to autolyse after your initial mixing process and when to move to the S&F.

      If you have a Stand mixer, I have a Kitchen Aid mixer. Do your initial mix to a shaggy mass in your mixing bowl with your dough hook. Be sure to double check the dough hook picked up all of the loose flour from the bottom of the mixing bowl. Some times I do that step by hand in the mixing bowl. Remove your dough hook, leave it in the bowl, cover the mixing bowl with a shower cap while it autolyse's. Then put your dough hook back on and let your mixer knead the dough on medium speed for 5 minutes. Take the dough out of your mixer and start the slap and fold process.

      Chef Jacob... Being a Master bread baker would not agree with me giving this shortcut to a beginning bread baker and I hesitate to do it. However... Doing slap and folds for 2 loaves is a lot of work.

      This will be much easier and take less time. It will pass the window pane test faster.
      Last edited by Breadhead; July 10, 2015, 09:52 AM.

      Comment


      • Steve Vojtek
        Steve Vojtek commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you Wartface . Yes doing slap and folds for 2 loaves is a lot of work and i worked up a sweat doing it - but i don't mind - it is fun. And it is also good to know that overworking the gluten is unlikely - one less thing to worry about. Maybe i was underdeveloping the gluten and that's why i don't get the oven spring i'm looking for - i think i'm doing the stretch and fold and tension pulls right. And yes i had blisters on my dough during the final shaping - i think i need to let it proof a little longer next time.

      • Breadhead
        Breadhead commented
        Editing a comment
        Steve Vojtek

        Just let the poke test guide you on your final proofing. Watch the dent test video again. That's the answer to when to bake and when not to bake.

        What causes good oven spring? 1) using your starter at its peak - its strongest point. Right before it starts shrinking. 2) Good gluten development that passes the window pain test. 3) Good tight final tension tugs and final shaping. 4) good docking/scoring. 5) Trapping the steam inside your Dutch Oven to keep the outer skin soft and flexible during the first 15 minutes of cooking time.

        Get all of that right and your boule will puff up nicely.
        Last edited by Breadhead; July 10, 2015, 04:42 PM.
    • Breadhead
      Banned Former Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 0

      #81
      Steve Vojtek... You've gone silent. What you been baking?

      Comment

      • Steve Vojtek
        Charter Member
        • Mar 2015
        • 612
        • Melbourne Australia
        • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
          Diy electric smoker
          A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
          Gas powered pizza oven
          GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
          Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
          Slow'nSear - my favourite
          2 x Thermapens
          2 x wireless thermometers
          3 x wired thermometers
          Favourite drink:
          Scotch whiskey various brands
          American Honey WT
          And beer ....
          And at work just plain old chilled water....

        #82
        No my friend not silent just busy.. I've baked what i think are the best two loaves so far. I have taken all your advise on board and created better boules than before. Once again i did a double batch of dough and baked one on the same night and the other one i decided to final proof in the fridge to bake the next day. This time my oven spring was much better - especially on twin no 2. The crumb was much better as well. With every bake i'm getting closer to perfection. Unfortunately i have no pics of the crumb from twin no. 2 cause i gave it to a friend and didn't want to slice it open. I think part of the fun of receiving a nice sourdough loaf is cutting it open themselves. Judging by the oven spring i bet the crumb was really good - i will find out tomorrow - i should have asked him to take pics..I'm doing another one tonight - only one cause i didn't increase my starter enough to do two.. Now some pics..Thank you...

        Comment

        • Breadhead
          Banned Former Member
          • Jul 2014
          • 0

          #83
          Woohoo... Great job Steve. You got much better oven spring. I bet you were excited to take the top off of your DO and see that. You might have given away your best loaf ever. That cold fermentation in the fridge overnight adds to the flavor of the bread and it can add some tang to the sourness too.

          "With every bake i'm getting closer to perfection." That's the way it works my friend and the fun of baking bread is that journey never ends. You'll perfect sourdough then you'll venture into making other types and shapes of bread. I'm now working on perfecting baguettes and Ciabatta bread. I got sidetracked with Brioche hamburger buns for a couple of months and that was a fun project.

          I love watching your progress. It reminds me of when the bread bug bit me.

          Comment

          • chudzikb
            Charter Member
            • Dec 2014
            • 184

            #84
            I am back, took "Bart" out of the refrig last night when arrived home, dumped and fed this A.M. Hope to try again this Sat. With the attempt to start later in "Bart's" cycle and then let hang in the refrig and see what I get for results.

            Comment

            • chudzikb
              Charter Member
              • Dec 2014
              • 184

              #85
              Ok, latest effort. What I did differently. I let the starter develop longer. (not long enough) And for final proofing, I let sit in the refrigerator over night. Tastes good, but, not the sour I am looking for. I think I will feed my starter the amount I need and then take it the next day for the bread, and maybe in the bulk fermenting stage, let it sit in the refrigerator for a day. Came out well, much better on the transition from basket to DO. Slowly, but, surly, I am learning.Click image for larger version

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              Comment


              • chudzikb
                chudzikb commented
                Editing a comment
                The second pic is in there, shows it cut...
            • Breadhead
              Banned Former Member
              • Jul 2014
              • 0

              #86
              @chudzikb.

              Wowser... That is a great loaf of bread. A professional bread baker would be very happy with those results. Your crumb is absolutely perfect. I love the color of the crust.

              The fact that you can get these results so early in your bread journey really does surprise me. You have shortened the normal learning curve dramatically. I was still baking doorstops at this point in my bread baking journey.

              Tipping my hat to you Sir!

              It will take some time for your starter to get more sour. You can't accomplish that in one feeding.

              Comment

              • Breadhead
                Banned Former Member
                • Jul 2014
                • 0

                #87
                I'm posting your crumb picture for everyone to see. That's exactly what you expect sourdough bread to look like. Job well done!

                Last edited by Breadhead; July 18, 2015, 04:35 PM.

                Comment

                • chudzikb
                  Charter Member
                  • Dec 2014
                  • 184

                  #88
                  Tipping my hat to you sir, and Chef Jacob, as that is where I learned how to do this stuff. I am getting more comfortable with the dough. Even to the point that I was doing the one handed slap and fold. (maybe a bit cocky?) Learning to feel the changes in the dough as it is worked, I know they say it changes, but, it takes experience to actually feel it happening. Like the idea of making minor changes and seeing what results from them. Having a bit of fun experimenting. This will certainly be a lot more popular with my family in the winter when the 500 degree oven will be a good thing! Not so much now.

                  Comment


                  • Breadhead
                    Breadhead commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Feeling and seeing the doughs development is the KEY to learning to bake bread. You can't teach that part of it. That is up to the individual to recognize each and every change the dough makes during the process. You can't do that by a predetermined time schedule because as your ambient temperature changes so will the proofing times.

                    A one handed slap and fold is not cocky... It just shows you are comfortable with that process.

                    When my house is hot inside I bake my bread outdoors in my Big Green Egg. When it rains I bake my bread indoors in a convection oven. I bake the vast majority of my bread on the BGE.

                    If you study the video about the Bakers Percentage by Chef Jacob you will be scaling your recipes up and down and creating your own bread recipes at will. Knowing that process makes it so you are not a recipe following bread baker. It makes you into a real bread baker that makes his own formulas and recipes.

                  • Breadhead
                    Breadhead commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Once you understand the bakers percentage and you've developed your mixing, kneading and proofing skills this will be your recipe list for various types of bread.

                    Notice... There is no listing for what type of yeast or flour to use. Bread bakers know yeast is just a tool. Yes sourdough yeast adds flavor that other yeast doesn't. Baker's know that they can use 1% of the weight of the flour for their yeast quantity to slow down their rise or they can use lots of yeast to speed things up. The quantity of yeast is used to decided when you need to bake it. The flour type depends on the type of bread you are making. Sourdough needs a high gluten content flour, bread flour. Sometimes I make Brioche with bread flour. Sometimes I make it with all purpose flour. If I'm going to make true Brioche I use bread flour and cold ferment it overnight in the fridge. If I want to mix it in the morning and have hamburger buns to serve at lunch time. I reduce the butter content and retard the gluten development by using All Purpose flour and changing the mixing process. If you're going to cook pizza dough at real high temperatures you need to get a 00 grade high gluten flour, or the crust will burn.

                    Bread is just like BBQ... Low yeast and a slow rise produces better tasting bread.

                    Baker's are like BBQ'ers they're willingly share that information for free. Most of them anyway.
                    Last edited by Breadhead; July 19, 2015, 01:01 AM.
                • Steve Vojtek
                  Charter Member
                  • Mar 2015
                  • 612
                  • Melbourne Australia
                  • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
                    Diy electric smoker
                    A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
                    Gas powered pizza oven
                    GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
                    Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
                    Slow'nSear - my favourite
                    2 x Thermapens
                    2 x wireless thermometers
                    3 x wired thermometers
                    Favourite drink:
                    Scotch whiskey various brands
                    American Honey WT
                    And beer ....
                    And at work just plain old chilled water....

                  #89
                  Another excellent loaf chudzikb . I applaud you. I have yet to achieve what you did with your 2nd and 3rd loaves - and i've done so many. You are a natural. I've been experimenting with delayed ferments myself - either bulk ferment or final proofing depending on my schedule - and noticed a stronger sour flavor. I have not tried doing both in the fridge yet. I'm guessing it would improve the flavour even more. The beauty of delayed fermenting for me is that i can bake more loaves. The work involved between the ferment stages is really not that much. I've been really busy last week or so and still managed to bake two loaves and have another one final proofing in the fridge to bake tonight. Next week i will try another pre-ferment but this time i will let it do it's thing for as long as it needs to - even if it takes two or three days at my temps. At your temps chudzikb a pre-ferment may be an option to get better flavor - page 2 and post no:22 in this thread.

                  My loaves have greatly improved and i have learned a lot since i started this journey - and have more to learn. I'm changing little things at a time to see how they effect the crumb. I'm noticing the differences with each loaf and learning from it.

                  Comment


                  • Breadhead
                    Breadhead commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Steve Vojtek.

                    "Next week i will try another pre-ferment but this time i will let it do it's thing for as long as it needs to - even if it takes two or three days at my temps"

                    Remember sourdough is a low PH dough. That's why it requires high temperature baking to get the color you want on the crust. If you over proof it the yeast will devour all of the natural sugars in the flour and your boule will not brown. The sugar is what allows the Maillard reaction to happen on your crust.

                    A long, slow ferment is good but you can over do it. I know that because I've had a blond loaf before from over proofing it.
                • Breadhead
                  Banned Former Member
                  • Jul 2014
                  • 0

                  #90
                  Steve Vojtek and chudzikb

                  You both have really surprised me with the high quality loaves of sourdough bread you have produced in your first few loaves.

                  You guys probably don't know it but many of us, me included, bake doorstops for a few months before we get a really nice loaf of bread.

                  My intent with Steve was to try to reduce his learning curve by giving him a short list of instruction that would condense his time of making a really nice loaf of bread.

                  You both have really shocked me that you could produce these quality loaves of bread so quickly. I've been on many bread websites over the last few years and you just never see beginning bakers posting pictures of quality loaves like these. It really blows my mind you guys could pull this off.

                  Chef Jacob is the magic, I'm just the director.

                  You guys have been excellent students that seem committed to learning a new and fun craft.

                  Good for you guys!

                  Comment


                  • chudzikb
                    chudzikb commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thank you sir, you are the one bringing us along! And for that we thank you!

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