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How to make sourdough bread...

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  • Breadhead
    Banned Former Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 0

    #46
    Last edited by Breadhead; June 27, 2015, 08:14 PM.

    Comment

    • Breadhead
      Banned Former Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 0

      #47
      Another good loaf Steve. We both know the holes in the loaf in comment # 31 were to big and in my humble opinion this last loaf is slightly dense. You did get some nice holes in parts of the crumb but a big percentage of it is a little too dense. I'm not sure I agree with you on the cause being air pockets during the slap and fold process because the stretch and fold process will degass those air pockets. It is my humble opinion that the loaf in #31 was over proofed. The longer your final proofing process is the longer the yeast has to omit Co2. The excessive amount of Co2 will create large holes. Like wise... Not enough proofing causes a dense loaf, under proofing. If I were you I would research that angle to get a loaf that is dead center between the loaf in #31 and this last loaf. With sourdough you don't want the loaf to double in size after it is final shaped. You only want to let get 1.5 times bigger in mass. That's a good time to do the poke test and see if it's ready to bake. Slightly under proofed is better than slightly over proofed. Perfect proofing will give you what you want. Breadhead... The crumb should look something close to this...
      Last edited by Breadhead; June 27, 2015, 10:47 PM.

      Comment

      • Steve Vojtek
        Charter Member
        • Mar 2015
        • 612
        • Melbourne Australia
        • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
          Diy electric smoker
          A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
          Gas powered pizza oven
          GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
          Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
          Slow'nSear - my favourite
          2 x Thermapens
          2 x wireless thermometers
          3 x wired thermometers
          Favourite drink:
          Scotch whiskey various brands
          American Honey WT
          And beer ....
          And at work just plain old chilled water....

        #48
        Thank you for your feedback Wartface. It's a steep learning curve and i'll be tackling all the issues as i progress. I have a delayed ferment in the fridge from last night ready to bake when i get home. This time i did my best to keep things as close to 80 Fahrenheit as i possibly could throughout the whole process until it went into the fridge. I have two questions if you don't mind:
        How much does the first bulk ferment affect the final crumb? I've been taking pictures to try and determine when it has reached 1.5 times its size. Would a poke test work or is it just a "visual" thing?
        Also how much does the hydration affect the crumb? Should i move up to 70% like Chef Jacob now that i'm comfortable with handling the dough?
        Thank you Breadhead ..

        Comment

        • Breadhead
          Banned Former Member
          • Jul 2014
          • 0

          #49
          Steve Vojtek

          Every step of the process effects the crumb. Mixing to far before your autolyse changes the end result. The shaggy mass is the right place to stop mixing.
          Your autolyse times are important, not to the minute but that 20 to 30 minute window depending on how much starter you used is important. The first bulk fermentation I just mark the side of my container with a marking pen so I can see how much it has risen - and no, there is no poke test for the first bulk fermentation. For a direct dough with lots of starter, where you mix all of the ingredients together and you're going to bake it the same day you usually have about a 2 hour window at 72 degrees. The stretch and folds that follow will get the dough in shape for final shaping and final proofing.

          Use the rungs on your banneton to judge how much your dough has increased in mass during final proofing. When I put my final shaped dough in my banneton, which is just like yours, I look to see how many rungs are visible. In my head I determine when I need to start the poke test by how many rungs it has climbed. Review the dent test video I included in the original lesson plan. As he says in the video... 5 minutes can make a difference in final proofing. Watch that video more than once. I believe that's where your greatest chance for improvement is at this point.

          Hydration... A 70% hydration dough, properly developed, will have a more open crumb than a 66% hydration dough. Yes... I think you are ready to try the 70% hydration dough. You might be surprised by how much, less than 1 ounce, of water effects the touch and feel of the dough. Give it a try and follow Chef Jocob's video exactly.

          Always feel free to ask me questions... I like our project as much as you do.
          Last edited by Breadhead; June 27, 2015, 11:39 PM.

          Comment

          • Steve Vojtek
            Charter Member
            • Mar 2015
            • 612
            • Melbourne Australia
            • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
              Diy electric smoker
              A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
              Gas powered pizza oven
              GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
              Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
              Slow'nSear - my favourite
              2 x Thermapens
              2 x wireless thermometers
              3 x wired thermometers
              Favourite drink:
              Scotch whiskey various brands
              American Honey WT
              And beer ....
              And at work just plain old chilled water....

            #50
            There is a lot to learn in baking sourdough. It's not hard to bake a great tasting boule but to get it perfect will require time and repetition. I'm working on it. I'm studying the videos and podcasts over and over and paying more attention to every small detail. I have also decided to split the process into two nights to be able to bake a loaf every two days and get good sleep. First night i do everything up to the bulk ferment and put it in the fridge. Next day i remove it from fridge and let it come up to room temp more or less ( about an hour or more ) and then continue the process and bake. I just finished baking one tonight and i will have 3 loaves to report on from last week. I will do that tomorrow as it's time to sleep now. But i'd like to post my dad's first sourdough boule - i think he did really well. His oven spring and crumb is so much better than mine. I'm really proud...

            Comment


            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              Woohoo for your Dad! That's a great loaf for him too. You are doing good work paying it forward Steve. Somehow we all progress as students and then become teachers. Just like on AmazingRibs.com.

              It really is very gratifying to mentor someone that really enjoys learning the craft of baking bread. I know now you're capable of answering most of the questions that are asked by other members about this process. You are a quick learner.
          • chudzikb
            Charter Member
            • Dec 2014
            • 184

            #51
            "Bart" my starter is doing what he is supposed to do, smells nice, lots of bubbles, a week and a day into the process. Feeding every day same time in the A.M. Made a nice 10 pound boston butt for a party, sad can not add bread to the menu, it will come in time. For us, it is the 4th of july, meant for drinking, fireworks, friends, and eating great food. Not in that order...

            Comment


            • chudzikb
              chudzikb commented
              Editing a comment
              I have not tried the float test yet, only just over a week now. My understanding was had to wait about 2 weeks? So, I am waiting...doing what I am supposed to be doing I think?

            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              chudzikb. The 2 weeks for your starter to develop is not a hard fast rule. I pose that as a basic guideline. The thing that surprises me about your starter at this point is it hasn't reached the stall yet. Some become fully developed without having a stall but not many.

              I would start giving it the float test now just to learn its schedule. On a day where you are going to be home all day. Try this. Dump and feed it and mark the side of its container with a marking pen so you can visually track its increase in mass. After 2 hours do the float test. Then do another float test every hour for 12 hours.

              Keep a log of it's progress at each hour. Every starter is different. It depends on the ambient temperature, the quality of the flour and water you feed it and the amount of natural yeast available near your starter. Some will be ready to use after 2/3 hours, some in 4/6 hours, others in 8/10 hours and some as much as 12 hours. It will double in mass when it is at its peak and then it will start collapsing in on itself... Loosing its bubbles.

              You want to know your starter's normal pattern/schedule. You would like to use your starter at its peak. Your bread will rise better when your starter is most active and productive.

              Rolls... are easy peasy once you learn to shape them. You use the same dough and portions it into the proper size and use a different shaping technique.

              Shaping dinner rolls... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4wCYIBJJjzw
              Last edited by Breadhead; July 5, 2015, 11:18 PM.

            • chudzikb
              chudzikb commented
              Editing a comment
              Roughly 4 hours post dump and feed, floats quite nicely. So, what does that get me? And where do I go from here? I did not mark, but, can see that the volume has increased. Have to do this before another short vacation coming this Friday. Will be putting "Bart" into the refrigerator and semi-hibernation. Pitty that does not work with kids and their apatite's!
          • Steve Vojtek
            Charter Member
            • Mar 2015
            • 612
            • Melbourne Australia
            • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
              Diy electric smoker
              A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
              Gas powered pizza oven
              GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
              Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
              Slow'nSear - my favourite
              2 x Thermapens
              2 x wireless thermometers
              3 x wired thermometers
              Favourite drink:
              Scotch whiskey various brands
              American Honey WT
              And beer ....
              And at work just plain old chilled water....

            #52
            Three boule's from last week were not spectacular but they were eagerly consumed and enjoyed by the guys at work. As i am now doing the bulk ferment in the fridge i am able to bake a boule every two days and get good sleep. Not sure if the results were better but i think i'm still over proofing them - still got those big holes. I started with warm water and kept the autolyse warm as well - close to 80F. Then i put them in the fridge to bulk ferment overnight just to continue the next day. When they came out of the fridge they were more than 1.5 times the size. The pics will show the results. Tonight i tried something different by keeping the water and everything cooler and increasing the autolyse times. First autolyse one hour and twenty min's between the stretch and folds. I have been using Chef Jacob's 70% hydration recipe and am comfortable handling the dough. My dad's in #51 used your 66% hydration and did quite well. I have noticed (and so did my dad) using the delayed ferment does give the bread better flavor - i like it. I'm anxious to see what happens when i bake tomorrow - if the changes made a difference. I think no 1 was my best out of this lot. Now some pics:
            Last edited by Steve Vojtek; July 5, 2015, 08:21 AM.

            Comment


            • Steve Vojtek
              Steve Vojtek commented
              Editing a comment
              I have a lot of questions but i will start with a couple: If i am working in colder temps and trying to slow things down am i correct to increase the autolyse times? And also the shaggy mass - i have been mixing everything till it's just mixed together - no more than that. No dry patches of flour - just mixed - is that correct? Thank you for all your help i really appreciate it. I love this bread and i'd love to be able to perfect it..
          • Breadhead
            Banned Former Member
            • Jul 2014
            • 0

            #53
            @SteveVojtek... You are doing a great job. Those are great looking loaves. You're much farther ahead than I was after 5 or 6 loaves.

            Proofing and autolyse times... Yeast activity is reduced by half or doubled by every 17° variance in the ambient temperature.

            I'm assuming Chef Jacob is mixing that dough in about a 70° kitchen. As a starting point I would double all of his times. I would try 40/60 minute autolyse. Now that you are using the delayed fermentation step in your refrigerator it should be less of an issue. The key is to fully develop your dough before putting it in the banneton. Make sure it passes the windowpane test and get as much tension on the outer skin as you can before putting it in the banneton. Seal the seam at the bottom of your dough when you put it in the banneton upside down. If there are cracks or open seams, pinch them together. Put the dough in the refrigerator as soon as you cover it with the shower cap. Your yeast will be very active at the end of the mixing and final shaping process and we want to slow it down quickly. I take my dough out of the refrigerator 2 hours before I want to bake it. I start preheating my oven after 1 hour and I start doing the poke test after 1.5 hours. I bake as soon as it passes the poke test.

            Mixing your dough to the shaggy mass. You are doing that perfectly. Mix only to the point there is no dry flour visible. Cover it with a shower cap and autolyse for an hour, or maybe 2 in your cold weather. Then add the salt as you start the slap and fold process.

            A LITTLE under proofed is better than a LITTLE over proofed. That will reduce the size of the holes in your crumb some.

            Bake with Passion my friend.
            Last edited by Breadhead; July 5, 2015, 12:13 PM.

            Comment

            • Breadhead
              Banned Former Member
              • Jul 2014
              • 0

              #54
              chudzikb. "I think you missed one of my reply's in the comments. After about 4 hours from dump and feed the starter does pass the float test. That was the only time I had to test. Where do I go from here? It still bubbles up rather quickly after feeding, I think that is good?"

              Sorry... Yes I missed that post.

              Yes bubbling in 4 hours is very good. Your ambient temp of 75 to 80° is sourdough starter heaven. Yeast loves 80°. Your dough is going to rise very quickly compared to Steve Vojtek's. His kitchen has been in the mid 40° range.

              "What do I do now?" It's time to make a loaf of bread my friend. Just watch Chef Jacob's video for techniques and use this recipe. This recipe is smaller and it's a little bit less hydration/water. It's easier to get it right.

              500 grams of Bread flour
              200 grams of your sourdough starter
              300 grams of water at room temp.
              12 grams of salt

              I'm excited to see your first loaf. If you have any questions feel free to ask. You can bake a loaf before your vacation on Friday.
              Last edited by Breadhead; July 7, 2015, 11:50 PM.

              Comment

              • chudzikb
                Charter Member
                • Dec 2014
                • 184

                #55
                On it, I will increase the starter's mass with the A.M. feed and go from there. Don't for a second think I am going to come close to Steve, I am thinking door stop, or something that the dog will reject!

                Comment

                • Breadhead
                  Banned Former Member
                  • Jul 2014
                  • 0

                  #56
                  chudzikb. "Don't for a second think I am going to come close to Steve, I am thinking door stop, or something that the dog will reject!"

                  Watch the video twice before you start. Just follow each and every step exactly as you see it. Especially the slap and folds, the stretch and folds, the window pane test and the tension tugs. Then make sure to use the poke test to know when your dough is ready to bake. Remember to preheat your oven 45 minutes to an hour before you need to bake your bread. The amount of time it takes for an oven to heat up to 500° can cause your bread to be over proofed.

                  You will be surprised how nicely it comes out.

                  The main thing is remember this is a hobby and have fun learning a skill few people have.
                  Last edited by Breadhead; July 8, 2015, 12:09 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Steve Vojtek
                    Steve Vojtek commented
                    Editing a comment
                    And don't stress if the outcome is not perfect - it will still taste awesome and perfection will come with time and experience - i'm still trying to achieve perfection and in time i will and so will you...
                • Steve Vojtek
                  Charter Member
                  • Mar 2015
                  • 612
                  • Melbourne Australia
                  • 6 & 2 burner gas BBQ's
                    Diy electric smoker
                    A-maze-n-tube 12 inch
                    Gas powered pizza oven
                    GMG Davy Crockett with Wifi
                    Rosle 24 inch charcoal kettle
                    Slow'nSear - my favourite
                    2 x Thermapens
                    2 x wireless thermometers
                    3 x wired thermometers
                    Favourite drink:
                    Scotch whiskey various brands
                    American Honey WT
                    And beer ....
                    And at work just plain old chilled water....

                  #57
                  I'm excited you're going to bake your first loaf chudzikb ! Can't wait for the result. Because of your ambient temps i think you will do very well. Make sure to take note of every detail in Chef Jacob's video - the way he turns the dough upside down between the stretch and folds etc. When i started this i watched the video and paused it after every step - then viewed the next step before doing it etc. It really helped me . Now i do it from memory but i still review the video regularly just to see if i missed any details. Breadhead's recipe is a lower hydration dough and thus it will look and feel a little different from Chef Jacob's but that's OK. At your temps you will need to watch your bulk ferment and final proofing carefully - Chef Jacob's times are only a guide - as our mentor Breadhead mentioned - a little underproofed is better than overproofed .. Best of luck to you and most of all have fun with it... I know you will do very well ...

                  Comment


                  • Breadhead
                    Breadhead commented
                    Editing a comment
                    ..
                    Last edited by Breadhead; July 8, 2015, 10:08 AM.
                • Breadhead
                  Banned Former Member
                  • Jul 2014
                  • 0

                  #58
                  Steve Vojtek. Great comments. I can tell you've adsorbed all the information well. Like I said a while ago... Baking bread is science and technique. The science is easy. The techniques of working with each step of the process takes time. Your 3rd loaf is easier than your first. The 10th loaf is much easier than the 5th. Knowing how your dough is suppose to look and feel comes from repetition.

                  Comment

                  • chudzikb
                    Charter Member
                    • Dec 2014
                    • 184

                    #59
                    Old "Bart" doubled in size, maybe more since I left this a.m. I put in 300 grams split in the usual ratio) Don't have time to do it now, but, will be watching the videos again and taking notes. Attempt hopefully this evening. I think I was told we have 2 DO's of different sizes? I will screw this up, and that is the point, can't learn if you do not fail.

                    Comment

                    • chudzikb
                      Charter Member
                      • Dec 2014
                      • 184

                      #60
                      Oh, one more question, DO gets preheated in the oven? Then add the dough?

                      Comment


                      • chudzikb
                        chudzikb commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Saw it in the video, nevermind. I should be done around 2- 3 a.m today!

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