Welcome!

**Richard Chrz** · September 19, 2021, 01:38 PM

Tomorrow’s bakes are now ready to start it’s bulk ferment.

**treesmacker** · September 19, 2021, 08:01 PM

Richard Chrz Here are pics of my attempt to duplicate your pre bulk ferment methods... last pic is right after placing in 6qt cambro. I think the dough was feeling good at this point. And it about doubled in size before cutting, shaping, and refrigerating.

**treesmacker** · September 19, 2021, 08:07 PM

Richard Chrz and here is shaping and prepping for overnight in fridge...

**treesmacker** · September 19, 2021, 08:19 PM

Richard Chrz Now here is the first loaf... obviously I need to adjust the temperature, position in oven, and methods...

**treesmacker** · September 19, 2021, 08:33 PM

Richard Chrz Now for the second loaf... I made some changes... I moved the oven racks up and placed a 1/2 sheet pan under on the second rack to shield some bottom heat; I removed the water pan and instead poured some hot water in the bottom of the oven at 5, 10, and 15 minute turns (our oven cleaning process calls for filling the bottom of the oven with water and then steam cleaning at high temp). I lowered the temp a bit - I think our oven runs hot. So, this worked... I like how the second loaf came out. It isn't near as good as yours, but I'll get there. I think the dough per your methods is really good and I'll keep doing that for now. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

**Mark V** · September 22, 2021, 11:33 AM

Tried 3 higher protein bread flours, all from Baker's Field Flour and Bread in Minneapolis:
Their regular bread flour, currently INGMAR hard red spring wheat, 13.6% protein, $12/4 pounds
Heritage Turkey Red, winter wheat, bread flour, 15% protein, $12/4 pounds
Heritage Red Fife, hard red spring wheat, bread flour, 15% protein, $16.25/4 pounds

I baked the bread flour and Turkey first, same recipe and method, 78% hydration, 3 stretch and folds, dutch oven. As you can see, the bread flour loaf turned out fine and the Turkey did not rise enough. The Turkey is on the left.

I figured that the Turkey flour dough needed more gluten development, so needed more stretch and folds. The next bake I did the same recipe and method with Turkey again and one with the Red Fife but I extended it out to 5 stretch and folds, remembering to do the window pane test this time. The Turkey is on the left, Fife on the right.

Now I got the rise I expected, about the same as the regular bread flour loaf. The Turkey did rise slightly more than the other two flours, the uncut loaves picture is a little deceptive - you can better see the rises in the cut loaves pic for the second bake.

The first thing I noticed with all three flours is that the colors are darker than the major brand bread flours. The colors and flavors are more like the 30% whole wheat breads I have made.

The crusts and crumbs were all similar. The Fife seemed to have just a little more of a sour flavor.

All things considered, I would go with the Turkey. It is cheaper, got better rise and close enough in flavor to Fife.

I will have to work on my dusting to get better appearance.

**Mark V** · September 27, 2021, 05:58 PM

So, thinking on the results in the previous post, I assume that Baker's Field bread flours contain some percentage of whole grain. Whole wheat does have more protein than refined flour, so I am guessing they boosted the protein percentages by adding some whole wheat (or more likely by just not sifting it as much).

The germ is high in fat, and fat impedes gluten formation. Perhaps that is why these doughs needed more s/f's, but could be that there was just more to develop. I have also read that kneading whole wheat dough can actually break down the gluten (because the bran cuts the gluten strands), but in this case I think the percentage of bran is low, and I did not aggressively stretch and fold so much that this became an issue. All conjecture at this point. I enjoy this more when I am trying things out.

**Richard Chrz** · September 28, 2021, 01:41 PM

600 BF 12.2 protein
200 high gluten 14.4 percent
Added 70 % water. But likely closer to 65 by time I finished working it.

**Spinaker** · September 28, 2021, 01:45 PM

One of the best threads out there.

Thanks for keeping this alive.

**Mark V** · September 28, 2021, 02:30 PM

Richard Chrz Made a couple loaves in the open oven on a cast iron pizza pan, used a recipe Richard posted a couple months ago. I usually use a DO, the only other open oven bake I tried did not turn out well.

This recipe is about 9% less hydration than breads I make most of the time. Could be the oven method or the lower hydration than I am used to, but it turned out with a tougher crust and more chew than most I have made. I liked that. It also of course was a lot easier to work with than the really wet doughs.

The first loaf went in with a sheet pan of water for steam, and I sprayed every 5 minutes for 15 minutes. That is the loaf on the left. It got ok oven spring, but did not open up much and no ear. Not sure why. Too much steam? I slashed the loaves the same as I always have and get good opening and ear in a DO.

I used a different method for steam with the second loaf. I rolled up 4 kitchen towels and laid them in a baking pan, poured boiling water over them to soak them. Did not spray at all. Removed the towel pan after 20 minutes, as with the other one. This one got more oven spring than any loaf I have made, still no ear, but it did open up nicely. Will have to work this out.

I will have to play with an open oven more. The second loaf makes it seem promising, and I would like to be able to bake two loaves at the same time. I will have to get something other than the pizza pan for that. The first time I used an open oven was with a 78% hydration dough, and it didn't rise up very well, it spread out a bit. It could be that I didn't develop the gluten enough, or I didn't shape it well enough. Will have to work on that, too. A DO helps the loaf retain shape, so that hides some flaws I might have.

**Mark V** · October 15, 2021, 08:48 AM

I have tried a number of things to see if any make a better loaf, or make the process easier.

I played with different autolyse times. For one, I mixed the flour, water, salt and levain all at once, let it sit an hour and then did the normal stretch and folds.That gave an ok loaf, but the oven spring was half an inch less than I normally get. Then I tried 30 and 90 minute normal autolyses. Both were good loaves, the 90 minute one gave just slightly less oven spring than the 30 minute one. So, I figure that a 30 minute autolyse is enough.

I wondered if I was thoroughly mixing the salt, levain and autolyse together. So I added charcoal to the levain before final mix so I would have a visual clue. After 2 and a half minutes of hand mixing the dough was a consistent color throughout, which is the amount of time I normally mix. Usually I stop mixing when it seems the texture is consistent throughout, and looks like I have done well enough. It was interesting that the bulk ferment went gonzo, I suspect the charcoal contains some nutrients that yeast really likes.

I tried some more loaves in the open oven on a cast iron pizza pan instead of my usual DO bake. Some loaves at 69% hydration and others at 78%. The 69% loaves came out much better than the 79%, but not as well as with the DO. If I continued I am sure I could get the open oven method to work out, but since I am happy with the DO results and get consistent results I think I will stick with the DO. I bake with my DO upside down. The lid doesn't have a handle on top, so it lays flat and is easy to load since the sides are low. And no worries about steam. I also have an oval cast iron roaster that I use for other shape loaves.

I tried two different washes, egg and corn starch. Both got rid of the flour covering left from the bannetons, I don't really like to see flour all over a loaf. I didn't particularly care for the egg wash appearance, but the corn starch loaf looks ok. There was no difference in crust textures than without a wash. I don't think a wash is worth the extra step. The egg wash loaf is on the left, corn starch on the right. These loaves were made with the charcoal, which had over fermented by the time I checked on it and left me without as much oven spring and opening as normal.

**RonB** · October 15, 2021, 10:17 AM

Here's my go to sandwich bread. I have caught my wife eating this bread several times even though she tries to stay away from white bread...

I pull at 190° to retain as much moisture as possible in the loaf.