Some photos from todays bakes. Baked 6 in total (also made 12 sourdough pizza doughs)making a fresh batch of dehydrated starter right now for our fellow Pitmaster Jim Morris.
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Dang Richard, those are beautiful! I need to get some better flour and get back to baking - I'm not that happy with the results I've been getting from the 25lb sack of Grain Craft Morbread flour... it has additives in it - enzymes are the ingredient I see that are not listed in Dakota flour. I think I can get Dakota flour now at Walmart. I think that is what you are using isn't it? https://www.walmart.com/ip/North-Dak...d-Bag/47440354Last edited by treesmacker; September 8, 2022, 06:14 PM. -
Thank you Keith, it felt good to bake this loaf again, I’ve been so buried in learning baguettes. Flour makes a world of difference. Definitely get the Dakota bread flour. It is a hard red wheat ( if my memory serves me, which I use a hard red in my pizza dough as well. If you can get it at the store, order it in the 10 lb bags. I order the 25 lob bags, but a ten lb is perfect.Last edited by Richard Chrz; September 8, 2022, 06:56 PM.
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Well, I made my first venture into sourdough baking this week. I started off with a dry starter I received from Richard Chrz - grew that, did a second stage from that a day later, then a day after that made a basic dough with 200g starter, 800g flour and 520g water, and 16g salt.
Starter was VERY active! This was the second one, and there was only about 300g of material in the bottom 1/4 of the jar before it went crazy!
I truly TRIED to follow Richard's process he outlined in another thread, but the problem was I made the dough at 11pm, so I folded and rested for 30 minutes twice, then just gave up, put it in a bowl like I would a no-knead bread, covered it with plastic wrap, and left it on the counter overnight. At noon the next day, it had GREATLY expanded, but I divided it into two (somewhat unevenly as it turns out), and did the fold/rest a couple of times, then again gave up, and just plopped two hunks of dough into a 450F dutch oven, cooking covered for 30 and uncovered for 10. Pretty much what I do with a yeast based no-knead bread.
I will say this is the stickiest dough I have EVER touched! It sticks to everything! I normally don't use parchment paper in the dutch oven, but did with this. I had to use a scraper to coax it off the floured silicon mat onto the floured parchment paper, and decided it was staying there.
In retrospect, the larger loaf sat on the counter, covered, for 40 minutes while the other one baked. That gave it additional rise time that could account for a size difference.
The crumb is not as big as I anticipated, but I think I did all sorts of things wrong, and the dough sat around either covered on a silicone mat or in a covered bowl for about 15-18 hours before finally getting baked. I also used King Arthur all-purpose as I was out of bread flour, and the store did not have bread flour the other day - just an empty spot for it.
Anyway, I'll work the process, but think I do not have the time to do the beautiful loaves that Richard makes. I'm gonna instead work on perfecting a sourdough no-knead process, where the only kneading is the 6-8 minutes in the stand mixer with a bread hook at the beginning. Just gotta research it.
All in all I think it tastes good, and we both had a slice with butter last night and didn't die, so I supposed it is a success!
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Richard Chrz I think I see I did not mix enough now. I ran 2 minutes with the levain, then 2 minutes after adding the salt for a total of 4 minutes. But I was on speed 1 of the Kitchenaid. I reviewed your process as well as rickgregory comments below, and see that I need to mix longer, and on speed 2 not speed 1. -
jfmorris ProTip: before putting the bowl back on the stand. Using the dough hook with your hand, stir all the way through the bottom a few times, often flour can get left down there. The hook in hand helps incorporate,
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Jim - those loaves look good. I just came from a 'sourdough is hard' thread on a bread forum, so a few thoughts:
1) The active time isn't much once you get the process down.
2) The fermentation time can be a lot more
3) There are several 'right' ways. Here's some thoughts and how I do it...
The starter
you don't need to maintain a lot of starter. You can keep a pretty small amount which reduces the flour you need to feed it and the discard waste. If you need a bunch more, just build it up over 1-2 feedings. I usually keep a 50g starter in the fridge.
My process
The day before I want to make the dough, I take the starter out of the fridge and feed it in the morning and again that evening. Depending on how quickly it's doubling, I might feed it the next morning when I will make the dough.
Once I have the starter ready, I measure out the flour and water and mix until there are no dry bits in my Kitchenaid. I cover and let sit for an hour (this is the autolyse step some recipes include). This gets enzymes going and seems to help the fermentation. It's optional if you're short on time.
When the autolyse is done, I add in the salt and levain and mix in the KA. I usually use the dough hook for 5-7 minutes on speed 2.
At the end of that, I move the dough to a large mixing bowl and cover. After 30 minutes I do a set of stretch and folds (I'll drop a video of this below). I do this 3 times at 30 minute intervals.
I then cover it and let is ferment (bulk rise). Usually this takes another 3-4 hours. It's done when it's got obvious activity - bubbles - and it's risen and jiggles. Try the poke test to make sure. IMPORTANT: If having a dough ferment for ~6 hours doesn't work, then after you knead it in the KA, put it in the bowl, cover it and shove it in the fridge and let it bulk there. It will take a lot longer (~15+ hours, but... eh). The key thing is to build gluten so the gas is trapped.
Then I dump it onto a floured work surface, preshape and let it sit for 10-20 minutes, then shape and put it in a pan or banneton depending on what I'm doing. Cover and into the fridge overnight.
Next morning, I preheat the oven, remove the dough, flip it onto a surface, parchment, whatever and shove it in the oven with steam for 20 minutes. Release the steam (just open the oven door), bake another 20 or so until the interior is around 205F.
Again, this is just what I do - it's not perfect or even the only way by far but it works consistently.
On crumb - I'm still working on this but it's related to nailing the fermentation, building enough strength in the dough that it can hold the gas and handing the dough gently do you don't mess it up. Some feel hydration helps and it seems to but from what I can read about it, hydration seems to be a supporting character in the process, not the star.
Stretch and Fold Video
Poke Test Video
Last edited by rickgregory; September 30, 2022, 10:27 AM.Comment
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Ok - the stretch and fold in the bowl just wetting my hands is something I will try next time. I also think I need to mix much longer. I ran 4 minutes on speed 1 after adding the starter (levain?) to the mix.
Ok, so what is with the cloth lined mixing bowls? I saw that Richard using a cloth lined form of some sort for his loaves? Do I need to find something like that? -
jfmorris -
I'm making bread today as it happens and will do a post elsewhere with images. I mixed on speed 2 for 6 minutes and as you'll see the dough becomes pretty smooth at the end of that. The dough has some strength at the end of this and should be smooth.
The S&F is to make sure you've built enough strength - you could mix for longer in the KA but it's easy to overknead there. -
The forms you see Richard use are bannetons, for getting the dough into the shapes. He lines his as do a lot of people, I don't. You want to add rice flour to them so the dough does not stick. Any rice flour (white, brown....) will work. Regular flour isn't as helpful for this.Last edited by rickgregory; September 30, 2022, 03:49 PM.
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One more thing that really affects rise/fermentation times... dough temperature.
One way to cause the fermentation time to be much longer than it needs to be is to add cold water to the dough resulting in a dough that's in the low 60s or something. Most rise times assume a dough temperature and an ambient temp in the mid-70s. If your dough is, say, 62F you're looking at a MUCH longer fermentation time. This can work to your advantage if that's what you want, e.g. if you're starting after dinner and actually want it to ferment all night until after breakfast for, say, 10-12 hours. But if you're starting this in the morning and want bulk fermentation done in the afternoon, get the dough temp into the 70s.
What I do is run tap into my Brita pitcher (see below) pour the amount I want into a microwave safe dish, usually a measuring cup, and then microwave it for 30 or 40 secs until it's lukewarm to the touch, then add it.
Also, filter the chlorine out of your water if you can. Regular tap will work, but the chlorine will inhibit yeast growth a bit. Obviously if the tap doesn't taste good and clean, filter it for that reason too. Do not use distilled water unless you have to. It will work, but the trace minerals in the water help the yeast a bit
Finally, Try to keep the dough in a warmish place. Mid-70s to about 82F is great. The dough will rise if it's cooler, it just takes a lot longer.Comment
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Thanks Rick.
I've got the chlorine issue licked - I run all my cooking water through an undersink filter. But I am using tap temp water. In the summer that water is probably in the 70's, but now its likely cooler.
I've often put a bowl of dough in the oven with the light on, and it gets pretty warm inside when I do that, and speeds things up.
I'm used to making no-knead bread with active dry yeast - this was my first use of a sourdough culture. -
Oven with light on works well. You want to make sure it's under about 90F or so. Yeast dies at, I think, 115F? Something like that.
The colder water won't hurt anything, just make the process slower. And I've never tried no knead with starter - if you do it, love to hear about how it works.
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jfmorris - Here's some photos of how the dough looks for me at various points. This is a 70% hydration dough - 720g of flour (600g of bread flour, 60g each of whole wheat and semolina), 505g of water.
Autolyse. Mixed the water and flour then covered and let it sit for a bit over an hour:
Kneaded for 6 minutes in KA mixer on speed 2, placed in bowl.
90 minutes later, after 3 stretch and folds:
Removed from the bowl, preshaped, then shaped into a log and put in a 9x5 pullman pan
That dough went in the fridge, covered, for about 12 hours and was then baked at 450F for 20 minutes with steam, then 25 more minutes after i let the steam out of the oven at 400F.
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jfmorris - That USA Pan is pretty slick and the loaf usually releases after a few minutes out of the oven, but I'm going to start using a quick spray of PAM. I would not use a lot of butter etc because you essentially fry the crust that way, but a light coating of PAM or something will definitely help.
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a few notes - that bread used 75g of 100% starter (equal amounts flour and water). It took 5 hours total at 78F to get to the point where I put it in the pan (I have a proofer that lets me control the temp).Last edited by rickgregory; October 1, 2022, 02:50 PM.Comment
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A few from yesterday’s bakes.
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Last edited by Richard Chrz; October 10, 2022, 05:46 PM.Comment
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Richard Chrz thanks. Is it that Dakota Mill bread flour you posted before?
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A few from this morning.
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Sourdough focaccia today.
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I made bread for the first time in a couple of months. I used Richard Chrz 's dry culture that he kindly sent to me. Only two feedings were necessary before it was ready for use. I used a different technique today; I followed the methods on a new video posted by The Bread Code:
He has a free 123 page e-book that you can download. I donated $5.00 for it but you don't have to donate.
The kitchen was cool today so initial fermentation took over 10 hours. I shaped and formed the loaves (I made the four types as in the video, the pizza dough is in the fridge for tomorrow) then went to bed for a few hours while the dough proofed. Cooked at 450o on my baking steel with steam. Basically, start time was 11am Saturday, baked at 2:40am Sunday morning for 30 minutes for the baguette and roll and 45 minutes for the big loaf. I could have proofed in the fridge overnight but I wanted to reproduce the techniques as shown in the video.
My results:
I'm very happy so far although I need to work on my scoring technique on baguettes. Tasting tomorrow will be the final determination.
Actually, I couldn't wait - I cut the small roll while it was still warm.
After taking the picture I spread some Kerry Gold butter on it and let it melt. The flavor is good, I expect a little more sourness will come through tomorrow. The crust, being out of the oven for only 10 minutes, was really crunchy. Probably too much crunch for the size of the roll. If I had let it cool all of the way and placed in plastic or foil overnight the crust would have softened. Overall I'm very happy with this version.Comment
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This is the Cloud Bread recipe that RonB posted here: https://pitmaster.amazingribs.com/fo...rs-cloud-bread
This turned out well despite mot having the correct sized bread pan. Mine are smaller so I divided the dough into six pieces instead of three. Since these need to be crowded to rise vertically rather than spread out where they will flatten, I ended up putting four into one pan and two into the second pan with a foil brace and pie weights.
These are very much like dinner rolls, a subtle sour flavor actually reminds me a little bit of yeast rolls but not as yeasty. They are soft and chewy with a soft crust. Other than the time required to make these I would recommend them as dinner rolls but Parker House rolls would be quicker to make.
I just ate two of these with melted Kerry Gold butter. Yum! This is one of the best all sourdough breads that I have made.
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Bread turned out better than the Vikings gameAttached FilesLast edited by jhapka; November 13, 2022, 04:54 PM.Comment
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