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**Richard Chrz** · January 19, 2024, 01:24 PM

I am moving this question from troymeister to this thread.

"What type of oven do you use? How do you incorporate steam into your bakes? Do you ever go higher than 65% hydration? What temperature do you bake at."

Attached you will see the oven set up I utilize, (I use a larger hotel pan now, as I don't need to refill in longer days of baking. But this is a perfect set up for 2-3 loaves of bread. Boy that photo shows I need to clean my oven, it does not look this good right now. lol

Pizza Steel, with a water pan underneath most of the steel, and still open air for the steam to come over from the side. This accomplishes two things: - A. a large pan of water preheated for about an hour, will make your oven almost so hot you can hardly put your hands in even at times, hot steam is a friend in getting the most out of your dough.- B. When sliding your dough in (on parchment paper, the water pan acts like a heat sink under the steel, and keeps the bottom of your breads from getting over baked on the bottom.

I bake at 475 for 45 minutes, turning my bread on the 15 and the 30 mark, to best manage my hotspots, which negatively alter finished product in appearance. I bake for color, not for temperature.

Regarding hydration. I have baked from 60 - 100% hydration. For what I like to work with, and find I get the best overall satisfaction, for "this" loaf at 65%. Other breads can certainly vary a bit. This is just my opinion, and yes, nailing a super high 90 -110% hydration can be extremely rewarding, there is no reason to bake at those, other than proving you can. 60-70 percent for most things is a perfect spot to bake at, just even for consistency in your outcomes.

And from yesterday.

**Richard Chrz** · March 8, 2024, 05:39 PM

Lessons learned.

So, yesterday, I for some reason (likely anxiety of my timing of bakes, vs. pick ups), had me switch course mid way through, I bake my standard loaf, or as I like to call it Loaf #1, (as it was my very first loaf that I designed and created all the schedules for fermentation, starter, scoring, oven rise, etc… ) but I bake that loaf at 475, it’s just where I find the results are best. I switched over to baking my sourdough ciabattas midway through the morning. and I bake those at 500 and on broil.

So once I switched over, and got the ciabattas baked, I turned my oven back to 475, but did not wait for it to cool down, as my study of the Maillard effect, I thought it may even be a nicer crust. Wrong!

Thankfully I had prepared an extra loaf that I was going to test a few theories on, so I was able to bake another one and keep the ugly duckling of the morning. I would never allow one of my loaves to go out like this. I’m sure it still tastes, good, and I will cut it open to see if there is other evidence of a poor bake (I’m sure there will be).

Anyways, the bake on the left was only 25 degrees higher in the oven, than the one on the right. Which by the way, when I let the oven cool down a bit, the next loaf came out as I would expect.

The take away, baking is a very slow learning process, if you are not a patient person, which I sometimes am not, this can be a very humbling learning process. I’m roughly 4 years in on this one loaf, and I am still learning. But consider all take aways as lessons, not failures. And always bake more than one loaf, I suggest 3, one loaf that looks different might mean nothing, but three shows you a trend.

**Richard Chrz** · March 9, 2024, 12:55 PM

In this photo, the left circled in red, the right circled in blue, you can see in the right loaf, that the end or start point of the score, the blue on the right is completely inflated, not pinched, at the edge, the Left circled in red, you can see where that is tight, and crimped, not allowing full oven rise, that is absolutely a hot spot indicator. And since it happened on both sides of the loaf, it was under too much heat, that was definitely the culprit for the oven spring, and again, I think the quick hot air from the broil (even though I switched it), it had already forced the upper end of the oven to be higher, and it over heated the crust structure, as this loaf looked wrong in the first 15 minutes, and never had the chance to recover, typically at 15 minutes my loaves are about 75 percent in oven rise, and continues to open for the next 5-7 minutes,

**Richard Chrz** · March 20, 2024, 04:48 PM

So I’m pushing my baking quantity, meaning how many baked at a time. My neighbors are pretty happy about it as I am doing most of my experimental baking on Saturdays, as there is no way I can trust my regular loaf to experiments, and then charge. Which means my neighbors get them,

My change has been adding my second pizza steel into the oven, on the same rack, which is not a perfect fit for now, they are a bit overlapped. Good news is, if I feel confident I can buy a 20 inch steel to fit my oven.

today I learned something, I baked 6 ciabattas in the same set up. The first one I baked on the right side and it was beautiful, almost to much oven rise, then baked one on the left side, not enough oven rise, not even close to be honest, then I baked 2 at a time, and noticed the same trend, left side almost a full 1/2 inch less rise, although better than the individual experiment, so I considered a few of my variables, and did the last 2 at a time again, same, left side less than a 1/2 inch from right. I did both again and switched sides at the 4 minute mark, but not enough to make up the entire difference. Next week, I will switch them at the 3 minute mark.

Either way, still a good day of baking, and have added about an hour to my proofing, with good results.

the take away, if you are open baking, try switching sides with your steel, it may or may not make a difference. I think the second photo kind of shows the difference if you look close enough.

**Richard Chrz** · April 10, 2024, 07:02 PM

Back on this day in 2021 I started making bread again after a very short stent between august of 19 and Feb 20. I quit making bread out of utter disappointment of so many fails.

But early in 2021, and although I had still given up bread, I decided to make a starter, and just learn and play with how to empower it. Then one day I went to check on my starter, I noticed something, I’m not sure what it was, but my starter seemed different, in a good way. I think I played with that starter for almost 2 months before making anything, just taking notes and observations.

So I decided to bake a loaf. I did not open a book. I figured that I would let the dough & the bakes guide me from there on out.

I was so excited when this loaf was baked. I knew then that my starter had power, I just needed to learn to harness it, yet stay out of it’s way.

So, I guess this is kind of the 3 year anniversary of “Loaf #1” and truly me baking bread. I’m pretty sure I’ve baked well over 1,000 loaves since.

Crazy after 3 years, I’m still tweaking it, little bits a time.

I have updates to my shaping, and want to document proofing a bit, I’ve been extending mine,

a bit of a then and now .. literally today as the second photo was from this morning.

**hoovarmin** · April 11, 2024, 02:44 PM

Richard Chrz what would you say is the shelf life of your bread?

**Richard Chrz** · April 13, 2024, 12:22 PM

To not flood “Show us what you’re Baking”, I’m posting these here.

it was a fantastic week in the kitchen, I was testing and tweaking just about every process, and the results were just on this week. My longer proofing has me thinking about different ways to test the flavor outcomes I think this is the very best loaf my loaf has ever been, in flavor and in crust, my wife even said so, including a few messages sent to me saying the same.

I also pushed my baguettes a bit closer to where I want them they are 14 inches, which is exactly what I wanted, my spacing was not good, as I was trying out a theory, and the spacing proved to be what I thought would happen, but I can change spacing very easy. The pans with baguettes take up significant space in my dough fridge, so, I’m buying another refrigerator to be able to hold more dough and other projects. Another huge win, with the extra pizza steel in the oven, I can now bake 3 at a time of my regular loaf, and will test maybe next week, baking 4 at a time, I think I have a hot spot zone though that I worry will not allow for. I have some theories on that as well…

Coming from baking 1 at a time, to now 3 at a time, it is far easier on my energy stores all in all, I think 15 regular loaves, 3 ciabattas, 3 baguette’s, and 20 pizza doughs,

**Richard Chrz** · April 23, 2024, 04:29 PM

Finally made a shaping video.

I will likely re do this, as I did not start with showing it in a ball, but everyone knows what that is.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Dx3wnYl9810?feature=shared

**Draznnl** · April 24, 2024, 12:41 PM

Wow, the first Fairchild Kitchens video. Soon to be…

**Richard Chrz** · May 4, 2024, 12:39 PM

I've always just thought of this thread as showing my steps, but really that is a bit weird to me, as there is no one way to make bread, the methods I've built suit me best, but that is as far as it should be taken. If there is anything I have learned from cooking, is that I am not certain on anything.

Truly the number of variables in all the different ways of cooking change, with each cooker, etc. With flour it is no different. I am kind of flirting with a new aspect of my baking, I want to increase my knowledge of it, not sure what that looks like, but I have been delving into the science part. I'm not doing that to become a bread scientist, I just want to know how to prove or disprove theories with a better understanding why, if I am really going to tell someone to do this, "this way". I likely will figure out how to ask the questions, and then maybe even try to learn or find someone that can answer them with more detail in the why, behind the result.

I could say this week was a less than spectacular week of baking, but I would be lying. I had stuff go wrong, but it went wrong just as I thought it would do, and I set myself up for the results, trying out a few things from bakes over the past year, and one that I have not had in years.

My experiment was three-fold, 1 control bake, then just a wonder what it will look like loaf, and is another step repeatable on a mistake from prior. The scenarios I set up were 1. Bake of 2 loaves at a time, of my standard loaf, with no modifications, so I could get 2 positive results to begin the bakes.

The next two I took 2 loaves that I purposely over proofed, (as I have been trying to push my proofing out a bit, but wanted to understand my results, this was not a control, this was a blind not sure what I would get.

The 3rd was two loaves that would be baked, after baking ciabatta on broil, and switching back to trying to bake at 475. I'm not sure if you remember the bake a few posts above where the bake on the left did not blister, it did not open as well, it was lighter in color, etc,... I had questions or thoughts on why in that thread and decided to hold back two loaves of bread to bake following my ciabatta bake, just to see. Which the Ciabatta bake is 500 broil, 8 minutes, oven door opening often.

Now, for the results.

Left to Right: Over proofed, the loaf that came after the Ciabatta, and my everything was on point control group.

I think it is very obvious on the over proofed did not get the oven rise, I expected that, what I did not expect was, that at some point in that process, it also lost the blister by 80% or more. I don't know why but would like to understand why at some point. The loaf in the middle or my hot oven loaf. I really would like to know why 500 degrees broil must somehow just over hit the steam, losing it's power, vaporizes faster or? I don't know, but looking side by side with the right loaf, it is almost the exact same oven rise inside, so... ? I don't know, but I can tell you temperature matters if you are trying to ask questions of your oven set up, as it was reproducible, to the T almost.

The next two photos are just closer comparisons.

Above is the over proofed, and my standard.

Above, Hotter oven - Standard Loaf.

Neighbors all happy, I kept the over proofed as I wanted to inspect the crumb a bit.

Also, thoughts on this going forward, maybe going over a bit of my own self-analysis, and maybe take aways of stuff that may be useful in your own loaves. I will do this with pizza doughs as well. Writing recipes and steps just really is not my thing, and i am so uncertain on the why's that I would hate to put bad advice out, there is enough of that out there on the internet already.

**Richard Chrz** · May 4, 2024, 01:26 PM

hoovarmin So, I still think it can be done. My oven vents a ton! I mean my microwave is above and it catches so much that it drips all o er my stove to-, and even steams I- the door on the microwave. I think it is worth more trial and error. I never boil water other than the oven boiling the water in my pan.

Someday I hope to play with a gas oven, because I need to understand this.

But as my previous post shows, over proofing can eliminate most of them. So, maybe the answer is not the oven, rather you need to move into refrigeration sooner.

**Richard Chrz** · May 23, 2024, 01:24 PM

So let’s talk Ciabatta loaf, specifically the one I’m crafting, but the lessons spread out to any loaf as a consideration.

About a year and half ago, I made a incredible ciabatta, and then did not make another ciabatta for months, and could not remember any of my steps, even what temp I baked, etc.. I have a few suspicions on steps, but still has not been reproduced.

I am close now, things I thought I remembered was, that I went with less is more approach, and just let the natural airy dough do it’s thing. That is totally the wrong way to do a ciabattta. Here is why I think that.

A ciabatta to me is almost best recognized by the large open yet even crumb, so the less is more approach makes sense to keep the airy pockets in the bake. Well, I can tell you that after almost a year of trying to get repeatable and results that I was proud of, I decided the less is more approach is not the right approach, as almost every time I baked one, (500 broil - for 8 minutes), the loaf would want to blow up like a balloon, (not as drastic as a frying a taco shell, but close). I would have to strategically try to prevent over inflating with little knicks or holes in the bake for air to escape. Breaking down in my head where I went wrong, the very fact that it has so much open crumb, tells me that I need to make even better gluten structure than my regular loaf, as the open structure means the actual gluten structure is far less than a standard loaf, and every little strand is tasked very hard on keeping itself held right.

My solution so far is to add more coil folds, and for an hour longer than I do for my standard loaf, and when I shape it now, I shape it the very exact same way that I do my standard loaf, just to get more structure made. Once you have this shaped and in the counter. You just slowly use a bit of flours and your finger tips and slowly relax it out to your preferred size, and proof for a bit, then bake that day, or put it in a pan with payment paper to help hold the shape, and bake in morning,

This is not working 100 percent yet, but, the real risk of a loaf exploding open has almost diminished, it rises much more controlled, and really still only needs a few holes poked in it around the half way mark. I have not cut one open since, that I have seen the loaf already split in the middle.

**hoovarmin** · May 23, 2024, 06:41 PM

I have a request - If there is ever an opportunity to record a video of you placing the shaped dough in the banneton I would love to see that.

**smokenoob** · May 23, 2024, 07:13 PM

I have major bread envy…..

**Richard Chrz** · May 28, 2024, 12:07 PM

So, I have a new toy for dough. Im just flat out of space to even try to learn more types of bakes, the space needed, the things that i want to explore, there just was no space. I had contemplated putting a large commercial fridge in my garage, but i could have only afforded a used one, and more of the sliding glass or open glass door like the pop coolers, etc,, Which would be a lot to deal with in the winter temps, I also really hate wheeling back and forth - up & down the ramp, etc...So...

I compromised on space, and holding capacity, and somehow my wife supported another refrigerator in the kitchen, but not a full size. I jumped on it, even if it is not my wishes, it is actually a blessing in some sorts. I have long thought that understanding the average temperature of a dough. rather than initial dough mix. How do you take a 46 degree fridge, vs. a 33, or 38 degrees, and slowing down of the fermentation, sustained over longer periods of time. and what does that look like, how does that change with various flours, etc... I have no idea if I will jump on all of that, especially various flours, I have not learned what i want about bread flour yet. Im just learning on how the proteins really respond to each other, and how to pull the strings on that process, almost no understanding right now.

I have although, already started playing with the temperatures, and moving bulk around a bit, extend the proofing, putting the loaves away earlier with a warmer temp, and then turning temp down when i see more movement, etc... I have to say, my loaf has changed, I have given a bit of my big belly for it, but what I have gained is pretty great. I truly think I am making the best tasting - eating experience bread I have ever made and hearing it back from friends as well.

I have no big dreams of making more than I can handle, realistically, so really I dont think I am going to bake more now that I have more space, rather, using the refrigeration timing to give me more rest, I am very much also in the search for a larger oven, I've fallen in love with the idea of a large deck oven, but honestly, that just also seems not practical, and I would be doing it for my ego. But, I am looking at some double ovens, as I now can bake 2 at a time without any give or take, my 3 at a time is not yielding me the results I want, consistently at least. But if I can go from baking 1 at a time, to 4 at a time, that would also be an efficiency step, which I could apply to rest, or to new projects, like Pizza, Calzones, etc... I have a ton of fun planned with dough and cheese, and sauce, and.... it's fun just thinking about it.

Like I had said previously, I did get a fridge specifically for dough experiments, rather than wishful capacity. It can hold 25 loaves in it, by how I stacked bannetons, and shelving, and still have a few drawers to put in pans that have baguettes, ciabatta proofing, and then I still have my garage fridge for pizza, which then leaves my patio fridge just for what I want for bbq, and other condiments, style stuff. Although, Im considering another of these to replace my tiny freezer out back.

I cannot tell you how patient my wife is with big flats of tomatoes in our front room, a stainless kitchen cart with shelving, wheeling around in the kitchen with me with all of my bake tools, I'm working on expanding counter space with a fold up counter extension. The flour bags, peels, etc..

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