Food Safety: The 4-Hour Rule When Smoking Meats

[fzxdoc]

I remember back in the day when people (my Mom was one of them) tried cooking holiday turkeys or large roasts overnight at very low (below 200°) oven temperatures and a spate of articles about food safety of a slowly heating bird or roast came to light. I'm wondering if using very low temperatures for very long times in a smoker for meat and poultry has also been brought under scrutiny?

Note: I'm not talking about cold smoking here. Meathead has written extensively about food safety and cold smoking.

I went a-googling and found several articles that discuss food safety at low and slow BBQ temperatures. I had a hard time, though, finding one that was scientific enough for my tastes--one that came from reputable food safety experts.

This is a thoughtful article on the subject: https://www.totallysmokin.com/4-hour-rule-smoking/ , although it erroneously states that pathogens generated in the danger zone are killed when the food is taken to a higher temperature during the cook. This article also discusses the Intact Muscle Rule with respect to food safety.

I can only speak from my own experience. When I smoke meats (usually at 250°ish or higher), the thicker cuts like briskets and chuck roasts stay in the danger zone between 1-2 hours, usually. Thinner cuts zip through the danger zone even faster. Whole birds like turkey also zip through the danger zone because I smoke them at 350° or higher.

Two situations come to mind where meat might stay in the danger zone for longer than 4 hours during a routine smoke/cook.

1. Overnight or otherwise unattended cooks where the smoker temperature dips low.

Every now an then pitmaster posts a question here about the food safety of a cook like this. Advice usually focuses on the specifics of the cook.

2. Pellet cookers run for long periods of time on the Smoke setting.

I don't have a pellet cooker, but it's my understanding that, for long cooks, they are often run for a period of time at a low temperature initially to increase smoke absorption in the cold meat. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. Is there an upper limit to how long a piece of meat can or should be cooked at this very low temperature (below 200°, for example) in a pellet cooker?

It seems as though, for certain combinations of smoker temperatures and meat thickness, that the meat could stay for a long time in the danger zone of 40° to 140°, exceeding the FDA-recommended 4-hour window at these temps. Should that be of concern?

For those of us who have remote thermometers with food and ambient temperature graph capability, it's easy to check to see how long the danger zone lasts during a cook. That always eases my mind, since time spent in the danger zone is apparently cumulative for any given food.

Kathryn

[Skip]

Kathryn, this is a very interesting subject. It would be great to hear from someone who can answer some of these questions and give us all some information that's true and factual not just their own opinion. I hope someone trained in food safety speaks up on this thread. Food safety is always a concern for me. Thanks for posting.

[texastweeter]

Does the high salt and sometimes sugar content of the rub inhibit microbial growth any?

[texastweeter]

Also, what are pasteurization temps?

[DaveD]

fzxdoc Kathryn, indeed, the low-T "smoke" setting on my Pit Boss runs around 125-150F/52-66C and what you say is exactly the purpose, to put smoke on the meat while it's cold. At those temps the smoldering pellets do put out a heck of a lot of smoke. I never run on that setting longer than 60 to 90 minutes, not for any food safety reasons (which had not even occurred to me until I read your post) but simply because that was recommended in the instructions! Definitely borne out by experience though, skipping that step makes for noticeably less smoky deliverables.

Looking forward to more discussion on this...

[Finster]

, although it erroneously states that pathogens generated in the danger zone are killed when the food is taken to a higher temperature during the cook...

Not sure I understand this statement. If the point of cooking foods to a certain temp is to kill pathogens, why would cooking to the safe temp not kill all pathogens?

[MBMorgan]

... and I should add most toxins generated before the pathogens that produced them are eliminated may not be destroyed by higher temps ... even if those guilty pathogens are ultimately killed.

[rickgregory]

That link is, broadly correct - most of the foodborne pathogens we're talking about are killed at higher temps (botulism would be the prominent counterexample). That's the entire rationale behind 'cook to 165F' after all. The TOXINS produced by them are not broken down though.

[Meathead]

It is my belief that botulinum is the one bug that forms more or less indestructible spores. It is not normally found in meats.

[Jerod Broussard]

If you are running at least 200, the surface become pasteurized fairly quickly. That is why Meathead likes at least 225 for smoking. The temperature reading you are using to say the meat is in the danger zone is the internal temperature, the contamination is on the surface., especially with large roasts like brisket and butt.

Chicken carcasses have sat at room temperature (after being chilled to 40-F or below) for 24 hrs with ZERO increase in pathogenic growth. Dudes/dudettes were still Lagging it.

The danger with microbes is "teasing" them with heat and then potentially cold smoking, or running way lower than 200 for a pit temp and not achieving any kind of surface pasteurization. When heat stressed or even acid stressed, the resulting generations tend to me more heat tolerant, particularly Salmonella.

[fzxdoc]

Of course if the surface is pierced by a temperature probe or by a fork transferring the meat to the smoker, or by the hook of a Pit Barrel cooker, etc., then that surface contamination becomes internal. By how much? Who knows.

K.

[Jerod Broussard]

fzxdoc a temp needle or hook going into a roast headed to medium-rare does not pose a risk, a roast that is headed to 200 likely eliminates AT LEAST 100 million microbes if they were present. 165 for a few seconds I'm pretty sure takes care of at least 9,999,999 microbes.

[Meathead]

The other factor here is what the scientists call "load" i.e. how many bugs are there? A thermometer needle can inject pathogens but not enough to make you sick unless the surface was crawlin with em. And remember, most die instantly when heated. I suppose a hook which is used on raw meat might be a low risk, but the issue is risk. Pretty low

[acorgihouse]

It's a good ?. I use the USDA guidelines, but they are skimpy at best. The "danger zone" is 40F to 140F, but so many things just fall in there fast. I like my beef at med rare 135F, so is danger even on the grill? Smoking really prob, even if you use a therm that has in food and in smoker temps, you can't always tell how far the smoker temp can drop before the surface of food is dangerous. There are also no real guidelines I've seen re: time it takes. For the ?s above, I would have hard time thinking salt content would ward off the often very hardy bacteria we have now. Sugar, unless it's honey dense, would not be antibacterial (and even then, mold can grow.) Pasteurization temps are lower, if for longer, but it is hard to find real times and temps. The cooking lit, say in sous vide, says 160F+ but 145F+ for longer is pasteurizing? I agree, it's hard, and I would to find out better info, but I have no idea where to look either.

[fzxdoc]

Your rare steak does not stay in the danger zone for 4 hours, I would guess. You probably grill it and eat it.

Kathryn

[DaveD]

Welcome to the forum! Long time between joining and first post!

[tamidw]

Have to say hi as I have a couple corgis! 😁

[RobertC]

Have you looked at the time/temperature guidelines for sous vide cooking? Of interest may be pp 13-14 and 16 in this document: http://www.bccdc.ca/resource-gallery...inalforWeb.pdf

[CHNeal]

I don’t own a temp probe but my guess is I smoke brisket and butts somewhere around 180-200 judging by how hot the lid is and how long I can hold my hand on it.
They are always on the kettle 16 hours so I’d bet they are in the 40-140 range every bit of 8 hours.
Maybe I’m just lucky? Smoke, salt and sugar are used to cure meat and and I inject / wet brine 24 hours in advance with salt and sugar ( well sugar for the butts anyway)and use lots of heavy smoke. After a couple decades I gotta think I’m on to something.

However I admit that this has crossed my mind many times before. Thanks for starting this thread, im looking forward to everyone’s thoughts and knowledge!

[DaveD]

You don't measure temperature...? Goodness gracious.

[CHNeal]

DaveD Nope. Never found a reason or need to.

[Allon]

CHNeal, I never did either. Very rarely do my steaks go past medium rare\medium.

I've had analog thermometers for years. I only used to use them on birds and roasts and only as a reference.

I only purchased my first digital, multi-probe thermometer in June of this year...

[Draznnl]

This was a very thought provoking post Kathryn. Thank you for raising the topic.

[Steve B]

Kathryn, you obviously have too much time on your hands these days to be thinking about this stuff. 😁

Seriously though.
I only read through your OP once. That being said.
If I’m reading this correctly your concern is mostly about pathogens, bad little buggers, getting into the meat and causing potentially dangerous situations for our eating pleasure.
My take is even though the meat is in the “danger zone “ for potentially a long period of time I don’t think it’s really a concern. Reason being that it will pass through that zone and be in a safe zone for an extended period of time while it continues to cook to the desired temperature, 200*ish. That long time above 140*, usually a few hours, should, I would think, be plenty of time to kill off any of those nasties.
Now this is coming from someone who has an extensive knowledge of nothing. Just for the record. 😁

And btw. Really great to see your feeling well enough to get back in the saddle here.
SteveB

[fzxdoc]

You're right, Steve, I seem to have turned the corner, painwise, in the past 48 hours. The pain due to the trauma from the back fracture has finally subsided, so I am "only" dealing with pain from the trauma of the neck fractures. No pain meds and a reduction of back pain means I have my brain and some focus back--and I'm bored!

About killing pathogens/toxins above 140°, read MBMorgan 's excellent replies #5.1 and #5.2 here to see why there's still a danger even if food is well-cooked.

K.

[FireMan]

We are so fortunate that you are bored fzxdoc! Continue on your mend!

[texastweeter]

I drink enough whisky to remain sterile on the inside. I'm probably a walking pickled sausage.

[Washblue]

So you’re saying we need to inject our butts with bourbon? Pun totally unavoidable…

[DaveD]

Punintentional

[Washblue]

I don’t even want to think about dry aging whole venison carcasses… in the barn…

I remember on the Georgia Coast, 60 years ago, deer hanging until there was a solid green mold on the carcass… Mom would go out in the morning and cut chunks off the neck, trim the dehydrated surface meat away before frying them for breakfast…

It was the most heavenly deep purple color and succulent taste…

Shortly after that we acquired a reach in cooler we could hang 7 deer in and a saltbox or two for curing bacon and hams…

This was another reason I wanted my pit to roast meats over a fire and not near it…

I agree with CHNeal , when I predominantly used Weber Kettles… I liked using the heat and times along with the shape of the kettle to achieve, “done,” meat…

[texastweeter]

2 weeks aged for me.

[Michael_in_TX]

I remember running into this when looking on how to do jerky. There are a lot of recipes on the internet that are dangerously into cold-smoking territory.

The safer recipes for jerky, including Meathead's, have you pre-cook/smoke the jerky at 200 F and then dehydrate it at a lower temperature.

I know for a brisket, I won't use a pellet grill temp lower than 200 F. (For safety as well as pragmatic reasons....I worry about a flameout.)

As an aside, I am very happy I got into smoking/grilling after AR came to be. There is so much crazy stuff on the internet (to state the obvious).....so much "leave it on the counter and let it come to room temp" type advice.

At the end of the day, taking away all I've learned about smoking/grilling from here, the best thing is.....I'm probably not going to get sick from one of my cooks.

[klflowers]

I set mine at 160. Never had a problem, been doing it for years. Lucky? Or is it all the bourbon like texastweeter?

[texastweeter]

klflowers is that a challange?

[klflowers]

texastweeter not a challenge. More of an observation. I think we might be related lol

[PNWsmoke]

My son (hope he doesn't read this) Has cooked turkeys on his treager at 165f for 12 hrs then flash fry or oiless fryer to finish at 165f. I finished one when I picked it up was about 120f took it home , cooked on Big easy to 165f and was good. No one got sick.
We ate separate this year due to illness.
I always silently complain about this method.

[texastweeter]

Does that big easy really work as advertised?

[PNWsmoke]

Big easy is propane cooker that does good job on turkey at faster time than oven with great results and no oil clean up.

[PNWsmoke]

crispy skin juicy meat