Food Safety: The 4-Hour Rule When Smoking Meats

[rickgregory]

So, in NO WAY is this a shot at anyone, least of all Kathryn, but I think we and many others overemphasize the 40-140, no more than 4 hours issue. Remember, safety standards are inherently conservative because they assume worst case conditions - someone who is at more than normal risk from illness, food that is contaminated, etc. And they are geared to reduce to as close to zero as possible any risk.

First off, the obvious - it's not that bacteria are completely inert at 39F or 141F but spring into deadly action the second they enter the danger zone. It's a continuum, but you can't write guidelines like that.

Second, the risk isn't binary, of course. Bacteria start growing rapidly in the zone, but it's not like a single bacterium is going to hurt us - that's the reason for the time element. No one cares if something is in the zone for 20 minutes, but 20 hours is definite "toss that food" territory.But I doubt 4 hours is sacred. Like the temps, It's not like 3:50 is safe but 4:01 is deadly. If we looked into this I'd bet heavily that testing showed that bacteria started to hit dangerous levels about the 4 hour mark and so they picked that because, again, a guideline has to be clear.

Third, the environment around the food seems to be relevant. From looking over the FSIS site (https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safet...-zone-40f-140f), the 40-140 range seems to assume we're talking about room temp environments. They do note that room temps over 90F shorten the time element. But that's not what we're talking about - the smoker environment is 200F+ So, the outside of the meat will be exposed to temps fatal to bacteria from the start.

But what about the inside of the meat? It's my understanding (and correct me if this is wrong) that much of the risk of illness is from the surface of the meat. It's why ground beef is riskier at lower doneness temps than a steak, etc.

PS: Even the FSIS is not perfectly consistent. On the page linked above, they say:

Raw meat and poultry should always be cooked to a safe minimum internal temperature (see graphic). When roasting meat and poultry, use an oven temperature no lower than 325 °F.

But they have a page about smoking (https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safet...-and-poultry#9) and it says:

To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you'll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process. Many smokers have built-in thermometers.

[Michael_in_TX]

These are all excellent points.

[acorgihouse]

You are correct about the outside/inside of meat. Fresh meat properly stored is clean inside, albeit not sterile, but the cut edges are where knives deposit bacteria on the surface. Thus roasts have a cut edge along each side, but inside still ok, while ground meat has hundreds of little cut edges all mixed through. It's why I cringe at store ground meat, not knowing the state of the grinding tools and their blades, so I grind my own, and yes, it's why you need to cook ground to higher temp. MHO

[bmillin]

We showed up for thanksgiving at my parent's house once, Dad a was a little frustrated. He had a turkey on the kettle, but was having problems controlling the temp. I had to explain that you cooked to TO 160, not AT 160. We had pizza.

[fzxdoc]

I agree, rickgregory , that food safety guidelines are open to challenge and interpretation. But as a cook who wants to cause no harm on her watch, I would like to have something relatively solid and scientifically-based to plant my food safety awareness on. That is, I have to start somewhere.

Sure, it's the surface of the meat that is contaminated. But if we use a fork to transfer the meat to the grill, stick a food probe in it, or a PBC hook, then perhaps we should think a bit more about internal contamination and the degree to which we should concern ourselves.

To say anecdotally that someone cooked or accidentally defrosted something that stayed in the danger zone for, say, 10 to 20 hours, ate it and suffered no ill effect is not exactly what I'm looking for.

I wish the food safety experts would clearly define for us not only danger zones but probabilities of harm in real-life situations that lie on the periphery of their recommendations.

Another thought: One thing about the 4-hour rule that I find myself coming back to is that apparently the time spent there is cumulative. It does not re-zero for every step of food prep. So if something is left to thaw on the countertop and spends x hours in the danger zone and then spends y more danger zone hours in the prep stage and z more danger zone hours sitting back on the countertop during a meal, then I would venture to guess that a lot of food may spend more than 4 hours total in the danger zone. I haven't found that addressed by food safety experts either. Somehow we're all still living and not puking our guts out.

So what do I do personally about all this information or lack thereof? I try to be a mindful, well-informed cook, eliminating or minimizing risk wherever I can. That's the best I can do.

Kathryn

[WayneT]

I get you CaptainMike. The Creator, when she rolled up her sleeves, did have a master plan in place. The resiliency of which you speak came through adaptation, i.e., evolution - getting sick and developing immunities, over and over again - and scientific progress to reduce disease. Personally, I wouldn't want to inhabit the same body our species was given millennia ago although, as I age, I may change my mind. ;-)

[WayneT]

CaptainMike Agreed. I'll make sure there is enough time and in the schedule and libations to discuss metaphysics.

[rickgregory]

I agree, rickgregory , that food safety guidelines are open to challenge and interpretation. But as a cook who wants to cause no harm on her watch, I would like to have something relatively solid and scientifically-based to plant my food safety awareness on. That is, I have to start somewhere.

I think the challenge is the 'no harm' bit of this. To whom? Someone with a weakened immune system is more susceptible than normal, etc. For each of us, we'll have different audiences. I think, though, that the 40-140 guideline is a great general rule for all of us to follow if we can.

The reason I posted above is that I'm seeing more and more instances of people treating it as a hard and fast, never to be violated rule vs a guideline that has caveats, etc.

"I wish the food safety experts would clearly define for us not only danger zones but probabilities of harm in real-life situations that lie on the periphery of their recommendations."

I think to get this, we'd need to have the research that led to the development of these guidelines and even then, I don't know if anyone has done this. People talk about 'room temp' but in the winter my kitchen is in the 60s and in the summer, the 80s. What's 'room temp?' I agree it would be very interesting to find actual research that dives into this stuff.

Another thought: One thing about the 4-hour rule that I find myself coming back to is that apparently the time spent there is cumulative. It does not re-zero for every step of food prep. So if something is left to thaw on the countertop and spends x hours in the danger zone and then spends y more danger zone hours in the prep stage and z more danger zone hours sitting back on the countertop during a meal, then I would venture to guess that a lot of food may spend more than 4 hours total in the danger zone. I haven't found that addressed by food safety experts either. Somehow we're all still living and not puking our guts out.

Yeah, i just learned this recently. It makes sense but is understated.

[fzxdoc]

In our family, we have immune-compromised elders and wee children whom I feed as well as the "regulars" . Not all the time, of course, but often enough to make me want to use consistent safe practices whenever I cook.

K.

[rickgregory]

fzxdoc - yeah, I'd be much more cautious in that case too.

[DavidNorcross]

I am in the camp of you can't be too careful when it comes to this topic. I am learning from everyone on this thread. Thank you for starting this Kathryn.

[smokin fool]

Wonder what killed more cavemen, a T-rex or a bad Brono-steak....
My inane comments aside interesting subject and comments.
I'll be quiet now.

[texastweeter]

Pissed off cave wife with a club.

[randy.56]

Good for you being concerned enough to doing some research. As we all had groups over at Thanksgiving. We do not want to send anyone home sick. Food safety is important. I also have looked into this question in the past, did not find the answer. These days we have great refrigeration, processing, handling of meats, cleanliness . There is a very slim chance we are going to kill anyone from food unless it is already contaminated., in this group anyway. Interesting topic. If you have not poisoned any one lately keep cooking the way you have been.

[FireMan]

Everything was chugging along interestingly fine until “caveman” was introduced. I am hearing so much about the caveman crap it is becoming to much. As you can tell I am not much into mythical theories of knuckledragging ancestors. How’s this for a curve, I theorize that the T-Rex was not a carnivore. Current history shows us that overly large creatures can only be sustained by huge quantities of vegetation aka. elephants, hippos, rhinos. I know whales eat krill, but it’s not like they are eating a shark or tuna, that would not do the job. So, massive tons of very, very small sea creatures’ll do. Sorry for the little rant, but caveman, c’mon man.

[FireMan]

No,no. No need to apologize, just a rant that’s been bubbling up in me.

[FireMan]

Oh yeah Cap’n, thees fightin words, yessir. 👀

[texastweeter]

For clarification i posted about a caveWIFE.

[Jerod Broussard]

It should be noted that the 4-Hour rule was created for COOKED food, and even foods like brisket and butt could likely have a 40 hour rule, foods such as chicken salad or egg salad, not so much.

It is similar to research on biofilms that occur directly on food, there's not much to find since there's not much there to be concerned with.

[fzxdoc]

For uncooked (perishable) food, I find the "2 hour rule" on the USDA/FDA sites.

[Jerod Broussard]

fzxdoc perishable food doing what? Sitting on a counter at room temperature?

[fzxdoc]

Yes.

[rickgregory]

So, to bring this back around to smoking... I can't see any reason to be concerned.

First, because I don't see most (any, really) of my cooks with internal temps lower than 140F for more than a couple of hours.

Second, because that's internal temps - external temps rise much higher of course and quickly pass the 165F range which will kill the bacteria we care about.

Lastly, because as far as I can tell from looking around, the 40-140 for 4 hours rule is for situations when the food is at room temps which food in a smoker is not.

There's also the practical data - if there was any risk from the food coming off smokers, we'd see cases that result and we don't. Hell, given the number of us who smoke, we'd see issues posted here.

[Washblue]

Cavemen are pertinent… and don’t get the credit they deserve…

from our illustrious leader, Meathead …

A tribe of these proto-humans were padding warily through the warm ashes of a forest fire following their noses to a particularly seductive scent. When they stumbled upon the charred carcass of a wild boar they squatted and poked their hands into its side. They sniffed their fragrant fingers, then licked the greasy digits. The magical blend of warm protein, molten fat, and unctuous collagen in roasted meat is a narcotic elixir and it addicted them on first bite. They became focused, obsessed with tugging and scraping the bones clean, moaning, and shaking their heads. The sensuous aromas made their nostrils smile and the fulsome flavors caused their mouths to weep. Before long mortals were making sacrifices and burnt offerings to their gods, certain the immortals would like to try their heavenly recipes.

oh… and cavemen had a sense of humor…

In another post today, where we saw realdocBBQ putting out a grass fire…. He wasn’t there for any other reason than to find a properly barbecued rabbit!

[texastweeter]

I prefer fried rabbit, but rabbit is good anyway you cook it!

[bbqLuv]

My Traeger's lowest temp is 165*F. That will kill all those surface bugs within seconds.
One of the best things is that my pellet grill will do an overnight cook with ease.
(2) The Weekday Brisket - How to smoke a brisket during the week. From work! - YouTube

[WayneT]

I resisted commenting on this topic for a long time because I'm already paranoid enough about general food safety, especially during the prep stages. Background: in the USAF, safety was drilled into our heads, constantly, especially vehicular safety if your were lucky enough to drive military vehicles which I was. That's the basis for my rather cautionary approach to life in general.

When I'm prepping food, safety is always on my mind and I probably wash my hands way more than I need to if I'm not using nitrile gloves, which I do in the early stages of mixing dough. I'm thinking about what I just touched, what I'm about to touch next and cross contamination. I think about what prep dishes can simply be rinsed (those containing dried herbs, flour, etc.), what dishes need a thorough cleaning (those with liquids or liquid derivatives) and what dishes need a thorough cleaning and sanitization (those contaminated with animal proteins). I nuke my prep surfaces before I start, several times during prep, if needed, and after I finish with quarternary ammonium solution and those nifty Swedish dish cloths I recently bought. Utensils, same thought process. And the list goes on and on...

I understand that surface pasteurization of animal proteins can occur at lower temps with a longer dwell time at those temps from my online SV training courses. When I smoke meats, I rarely use a setting below 225F unless I want to instill some smoke in something I will SV as the next step or later on. I am always conscious of the 40F - 140F danger zone and after a SV, make sure I stay within the CREA safety guidelines for chilling down then storing animal protein. (i.e. down from highest IT to 70F or lower in 2 hours then down to 40F or lower within another 4 hours.) So far, using my methods, I haven't been myself or sent anyone to the ER from my food prep and cooking. However, I appreciate Kathryn starting this topic because it's important during the holiday season when more friends and family are coming to sample my prepared foods.

May all your holidays be cheerful and safe!

[Jfrosty27]

First, thanks Kathryn for starting this thread. Very informative and a great reminder of things to know. In general, I am doing things right but I need to tighten it up a bit for sure.

I have been thinking back and remembering how my mom did things. OMG. It’s a miracle we didn’t all die. She would leave packages of chicken on the kitchen counter all day to defrost. Or in colder seasons, place frozen meat on the floor on top of the heat duct to defrost. Really! Leftovers would sit out all night because she forgot to put them in the refrigerator after cooling. Etc., etc. Truly a miracle.

[fzxdoc]

I know, Jfrosty27 , my Mom did a lot of those things too. As kids, we'd get super-barfy sick from time to time, but it was hard to tell back then whether it was food-related, or due to the some of the shenanigans we kids would get up to.


Kathryn

[FireMan]

Yeah like eating a raft of pretzels & elmers glue.