Food Safety: The 4-Hour Rule When Smoking Meats

[fzxdoc]

I resisted commenting on this topic for a long time because I'm already paranoid enough about general food safety, especially during the prep stages. Background: in the USAF, safety was drilled into our heads, constantly, especially vehicular safety if your were lucky enough to drive military vehicles which I was. That's the basis for my rather cautionary approach to life in general.

When I'm prepping food, safety is always on my mind and I probably wash my hands way more than I need to if I'm not using nitrile gloves, which I do in the early stages of mixing dough. I'm thinking about what I just touched, what I'm about to touch next and cross contamination. I think about what prep dishes can simply be rinsed (those containing dried herbs, flour, etc.), what dishes need a thorough cleaning (those with liquids or liquid derivatives) and what dishes need a thorough cleaning and sanitization (those contaminated with animal proteins). I nuke my prep surfaces before I start, several times during prep, if needed, and after I finish with quarternary ammonium solution and those nifty Swedish dish cloths I recently bought. Utensils, same thought process. And the list goes on and on...

I understand that surface pasteurization of animal proteins can occur at lower temps with a longer dwell time at those temps from my online SV training courses. When I smoke meats, I rarely use a setting below 225F unless I want to instill some smoke in something I will SV as the next step or later on. I am always conscious of the 40F - 140F danger zone and after a SV, make sure I stay within the CREA safety guidelines for chilling down then storing animal protein. (i.e. down from highest IT to 70F or lower in 2 hours then down to 40F or lower within another 4 hours.) So far, using my methods, I haven't been myself or sent anyone to the ER from my food prep and cooking. However, I appreciate Kathryn starting this topic because it's important during the holiday season when more friends and family are coming to sample my prepared foods.

May all your holidays be cheerful and safe!

Well said, Wayne.

When it comes to food safety, I'd rather overdo than underdo. I prefer to be as well-informed as possible, along with a large dose of common sense mixed in for good measure.

That's why I appreciate every single post here on this topic. Lots of good ideas, and lots of common sense. We have such a good group of people here on The Pit.

Kathryn

[Meathead]

fzxdoc Says "This is a thoughtful article on the subject: https://www.totallysmokin.com/4-hour-rule-smoking/ , although it erroneously states that pathogens generated in the danger zone are killed when the food is taken to a higher temperature during the cook. This article also discusses the Intact Muscle Rule with respect to food safety."

Heat kills. It is my belief that, based on my research with the help of my PhD Food Microbiologist wife, that all pathogens except botulinum start to die at about 131F. So the USDA/FDA "danger zone" is a little off, but keep in mind the USDA/FDA temperature guidelines were written before digital thermometers became affordable and popular. Remember they still say minimum beef temp is 145F. So it seems that if meat moves into the bacteria friendly temps and a few grow, they should be killed as the temp rises above 131F.

[WayneT]

Meathead I assume that the third column 'Maximum Growth' indicates the maximum temperature at which the bacteria can survive, above which, they begin to die or at least not grow as quickly and ultimately end up at a ppm count that is safe.

[Meathead]

WayneT Yes. They cannot grow above that temp and they start to die.

[Meathead]

We must also consider what the scientists call "load." It is highly unlikely that a probe, fork, or hook will push enough pathogens to the interior to cause issues. In order to make you sick there needs to be a significant number of bugs. Also keep in mind that 165F is thought to be the instant kill temp. Kills all pathogens instantly. If you are doing something like brisket or pork butt, I don't think pathogens stand a chance.

[Meathead]

This article contains a discussion of the pathogens https://amazingribs.com/more-techniq...-grill-safety/

[Meathead]

So let's look at the "danger zone." Gov sez 40-140F but we know from the chart above 131 is probably more accurate on the high end. At 39F we are lead to believe that pathogens cannot grow. At 40 maybe one or two replicate? As the temp warms, perhaps a few more pop up. But slowly at lower temps. So the question then is how long will the meat be in the zone of 40 to 131. Depends on thickness. The core of a butt will stay pretty cold for a long time. But then again, if it is a whole muscle, it's unlikely to be contaminated. And even if it was, as it passes 131 they start to die.

[rickgregory]

I think we've also expanded the discussion past the original question. I don't think there's any debate that we should be careful in handling food and cognizant of cross contamination etc. It's also obvious to do things like thaw food safely and err on the side of caution when judging of a food has or has not spoiled.

But the 40-140 when smoking concern seems to me like a solved issue provided we're talking about smoking temps over 200F and we assume the meat isn't unduly risky (i.e. we didn't leave it on the counter all night to thaw, etc.).

[Allon]

Agreed.

[shify]

Yup - the question was about potential risks of meats being in the danger zone too long at "normal" temps. As noted above, i don't see any risks cooking at >225.

And even the cited danger zone range 40-140 is not surprisingly conservative from the FDA. Just like they tell you to take poultry to 165 deg to kill bacteria, but even if you are frying it, the inside of the meat will be >155 deg long enough to pasteurize (~50 seconds), so bacteria is dead before you hit the "instant kill" temp.

[Allon]

Biology has a nasty habit of doing the 'out of the ordinary'.

I almost always cook at 225ish. Poultry, fish and searing would be the exceptions I can think of.

[fzxdoc]

That pretty much describes my takeaway message from all of this discussion nutshell, rickgregory . Thanks for summarizing it so nicely for me.

Kathryn