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**ItsAllGoneToTheDogs** · October 23, 2022, 08:36 PM

I know a lot of people don't have much room, but you can do under window planters (ensure you do the drainage right!) or deck rail planters, and vertical gardening is also very high yield if done right. I keep kicking the can down the road but I really need to construct my garden. I have plenty of space, and have thought about growing lettuce, taters, and some other stuff...

Unfortunately, my neighbor has a garden he's growing (over his leach field and probably thinks I'm rude for not accepting offerings) and I suspect that's why I had all sorts of pests I never had to deal with before. The only plant this year that survived was my chives.

However, at some point, regardless of world climate it just makes sense to grow some stuff.

I do think people need to get more educated and interested in pickling, canning, and fermenting. That's something anyone can do, and I need to do more of.

**captainlee** · October 23, 2022, 09:11 PM

We have a Growing Spaces dome greenhouse in which we can grow year round. There are no heaters required for winter as a very large water tank is the heat sink storing the heat from the sun. Summer crops such as tomatoes, peas,beets and carrots can be processed and stored for future meals. We also stock up on the Colorado sweet corn in season, blanch and freeze. Growing outdoors is so limited here at our altitude because of a short season and very cool summer nights. We have always thought of our garden as a convenience, but times they are a changing fast. 2023 will be a very different year for all of us, hope that we can all adapt.

**CHNeal** · October 24, 2022, 07:17 AM

I keep the freezer and the pantry full. I have never really gardened but we are in the beginning stages of planning for it next spring.
I remember when in late march of 2020 hit and everyone panicked and there were fights at the stores and limits on purchases. My Daugher walked up to me , kissed me on the cheek and said thanks pop. When I asked what that was about she said the pantry and freezer are full and we have 2 months we could wait this out and mom and me are always laughing when you come home with 10 chickens …..so thanks!

I also remember going to Sams on a restock trip later that year and some…..actually called the police on me and another guy “ for buying too much” and “ not caring about the less privileged” I had a dozen pork butts, a dozen pork loins, 30 lbs of Salmon and 50 lbs of chicken breast and 50 lbs of ground beef…my normal twice / trice yearly load. The police actually showed up while I was in the check out line! The caller had said we were stealing from the community!!! Officer listened to Nancy for a couple mins and asked me what time dinner was as he walked away…..

**Uncle Bob** · October 24, 2022, 07:59 AM

Modern life relies heavily on three energy groups: Food, including water (fuel for the body), Electricity, and Fossil fuels. Acquisition and retention of each of those is dependent on ready availability of the other, like a circle. Food depends on fossil fuels for fertilization, pest control, processing, and distribution. Electricity is also part of the distribution, and then storage. And those are only part of that picture. All three of those energy sources are under some form of attack by forces I'll leave up to you to notice/identify for yourself. They are using fear tactics and other methods of crowd herding to accomplish whatever their goals may be. They only get away with it if given the power to do so by the crowd. Just things to consider along with all the other thoughts above. Survival depends on information and then action.

**WayneT** · October 24, 2022, 08:05 AM

I’ve had fleeting thoughts about severe food shortages but remain an optimist, like klflowers. Technology isn’t always the solution to our self-inflicted problems but I’m not a Luddite, either. I don’t think we, as a society, are moving toward Maslow’s bottom rung on the needs hierarchy, but clearly many people are already there and more headed that way, for various economic AND political reasons. Methinks there is an elephant in the room that can only be addressed in a political discussion but I refuse to start it at CaptainMike ‘s request and because this isn’t the proper forum.

**Richard Chrz** · October 24, 2022, 08:21 AM

I limit myself to what I can get a farmer to deliver, I’m not a big fan of getting on a bus to go shopping, and also not a big fan of relying on my wife to take me to a store. So I generally go by, what can be delivered. I do think about food differently though, even though I do not have instant access to it all. We grow our own herbs, Likely as most in here, I also make all of my soup stocks, render my fats down, now making our own pasta, and try to use the best ingredients I can afford. We rarely buy food that comes in a box or a can. I do buy commodity pork, fish, and beef, I want to buy 25 racks of ribs, not get a few racks at time of a hog being butchered. But understand the opposite is likely better for local community of farms. I used to do a lot of hunting and filled our freezers with duck, pheasant, and deer, however I did not cook very good then, I was to busy enjoying or maintaining other things.

**tstalafuse** · October 24, 2022, 08:22 AM

Just my two pennies, but I would be far more concerned about our ancient and getting more feeble by the day electrical grid. It is well documented the emp pulse from 3-4 nuclear atmospheric blasts over the US would knock out 95% or more of all electrical production, cars, computers, cell phones in the US/Canada/Mexico... Anyone on long term meds to stay alive, think it is expensive now? It won't exist within 90 days. Virtually every animal that can be eaten will mostly be gone with 90 days from the 300 million searching for food. Those gardens, water isn't going to come out of the faucet, so unless you have a hand pumped well. Freezer full of food, guess what isn't going to stay frozen, so you better learn to cure meat for long term storage. Instantly back to the 1800's with many times more people trying to live off the land than the 1800's, and it is the instant part that is the problem. It isn't a full World War that will take most everyone out, just a limited exchange of a few nukes.. The good news is that after 90 days, there won't be very many people competing with you for food or water since mostly everyone will be dead from starvation/dehydration/exposure or killed by their neighbor for the few scraps of food left.. Pro-tip, stock up on those cans of dehydrated water..

**CaptainMike** · October 24, 2022, 09:27 AM

WayneT and klflowers make great points about optimism. I am an optimist by nature as well, but reality can whap even the most optimistic of us upside the head with breathtaking suddenness or over such a long time as to be barely noticed. Well, until it's too late, anyway.

Several years ago I had perhaps one of the most poignant conversations I've ever had. It was with my friend's mother who was born in 1927 Germany and came of age under Nazism and the horrors of WWII. As a girl she recalled her father and his brother discussing the rise to power of Adolph Hitler (the real AH) and their current state of world affairs. She said her father was worried that Hitler would get them into a war while his brother was saying there's no way that could happen in this day and age. Sound familiar?

She went on telling of when she came home from school one day and her Papa greeted her with "Good afternoon Eva, how was school today?" She replied in all childhood innocence "Oh Papa, we don't say Good Afternoon anymore, we say Heil Hitler!" I felt an actual chill run up my spine when she said that, especially with her German accent. It was at that moment I knew that if it could happen in a modern Germany 75 years prior to our conversation it could happen anywhere and any time.

In my 61 years I have never experienced what we are experiencing right now and the only reference I have is first hand accounts from my parents, those who lived through it, and my understanding of world history and human nature. I don't believe we as a nation are going to hit rock bottom, we're too resilient (or we used to be) for that and we have been worse off (early 1860's and 1940's) and survived. But the signs are there and they are remarkably similar to those of the past. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. I don't lie awake at night fretting over it, but I do ponder and ask myself "What if..."

**UncleSpike** · October 24, 2022, 09:34 AM

Yeah. You're on to something there.

About 18 months ago we were fortunate enough to be able to move to the country. We now grow a lot of our own food. This year we raised 25 chickens for meat, and we have 12 laying hens as well. We've got a cow close to ready for butcher, and three sheep that are ready for the freezer as well. A big garden, but not big enough. The challenge is storage for all this food - but we don't plan to run out of anything...
For what it's worth - chickens are by far the easiest and cheapest means for food. They don't take much space or costly feed, and only take a few minutes per day of your time...

**WayneT** · October 24, 2022, 02:25 PM

What worries me most about this conversation is its self-centeredness. Sure, there are some of us who can grow our own stuff if things go to hell in a hand basket, and I'm sure there are some that could move from the center city or suburbia to a place to try. But what about our fellow human beings who cannot? Let's not go down a Lord of the Flies path here. Altruism is unique to the human species and it took us millennia to evolve to that point. I still believe there are more things that unite us than divide us, despite what our politicians say. We cannot, as a nation or society of over 335 million people, go back to predominantly agrarian ways, there are just too many of us and not enough available land. If we think those measures are an attractive alternative, then maybe things have gone too far already.

**Porkies** · October 24, 2022, 04:03 PM

I am an optimist except when it comes to human beings. If it got that bad, then it won't matter if you have a small garden, a freezer full of meat, or land enough to grow your own - if you don't have backup. I fully believe that our society is at a point where if there were any major catastrophes or shortages (food, water, electricity and so on) the most important resource will be enough true friends/acquaintances to stave off attacks.

The percentage of Americans who can grow a vegetable garden or catch fish or harvest wild meat, is too small imho. There will be small and large gangs of people following the ways of "The Walking Dead" and other such shows. These folks will just try and take what they need/want instead of working at it.

Sorry to be a downer, but that is how I feel.

**rickgregory** · October 24, 2022, 05:37 PM

I'm not, really, for two reasons.

First, because nothing repeats exactly and I don't see us headed to societal collapse. We're also not the country we were in the 1910s-30s with large numbers of people involved in agriculture. The past can be instructive, but interpretation is needed (and it's impossible to not interpret through one's political outlook, I think).

Second, for me and I suspect for many if not most (esp in general vs on these forums) is that we cannot possibly be self-sufficient. My house sits on 1/4 acre. I can likely garden a good chunk of my veggies in the summer and some into the fall but there's no way for me to raise even most of what I eat over the course of the year, especially since I live in Washington where the growing season is basically May-October. Not only do fall temps, er, fall, but days shorten to maybe 8 hours of light and most of that is clouded.

Mind you, I am doing some things - I bake my own bread and might stock up on grain (flour doesn't last as long) and I've started looking for deals on meats etc. But these are around the edges things.

All of this is just reminding me to buy more whiskey.

**STEbbq** · October 24, 2022, 06:17 PM

I also do not see this as how to prep for doomsday and collapse. I do think we can be more thoughtful about what we can do given our Individual situation to upgrade how we can source food in a more sustainable manner. Simply because some of our usual approaches may be far more expensive than in the past. If we want to continue to enjoy the quality of food we have had, we might need to be willing to pay for those higher costs or investigate alternatives to the extent that we can. And everyone has different options and choices.

**rickgregory** · October 24, 2022, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by IFindZeroBadCooks View Post

I also do not see this as how to prep for doomsday and collapse. I do think we can be more thoughtful about what we can do given our Individual situation to upgrade how we can source food in a more sustainable manner. Simply because some of our usual approaches may be far more expensive than in the past. If we want to continue to enjoy the quality of food we have had, we might need to be willing to pay for those higher costs or investigate alternatives to the extent that we can. And everyone has different options and choices.

That's two very different things though. Enjoying quality is very much different from "I can't find meat on the shelves" or "High quality beef is too pricey, I need to stalk sales and keep the freezer full or learn how to cook cheaper cuts."

That said, I'm probably going to look at gardening more next summer. The problem is what do grow that I either eat fresh or that preserves well. But that's what the winter is for, planning.

PS: and, well, several of the other comments definitely lean toward "if things have gone to hell" so... 🤷‍♂️

**Timbo54** · October 24, 2022, 11:49 PM

Since retiring and joining this site , I have been bulking up with all the great recipes that you all have provided. Pant and belt size increasing, so I hope I will be able to go into hibernation when needed for an extended period of time. When awaken I will cook up my Rancho Gordo beans and go fishing.

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