Is the Hot & Fast Method Just Hype or am I Not Doing it Right?

[ILMsmoke]

Ok, I've owned quite a few different types of cookers and recently jumped in on the Gateway "Insane Can Possee" bandwagon. I'm typically the go to person in my circle if there's a crowd to cook for and they want great tasting food. I've worked really hard on perfecting my low & slow method on offset smokers and pellets grills and even my weber kettle, but I just don't get it with the Gateway. It will cook the absolute best chicken and ribs I've ever eaten, but the large cuts like Boston butt and brisket are meh... When I've asked for thoughts in Gateway's user group I almost without fail get the "needles up", "turn and burn", "if you want low and slow buy something different" responses when I propose issues I'm have getting the desired results.

I like bbq with loads of bark and when you cook at 350(300 on the dial is usually 350 on the grate) you just don't get enough time in the smoke to add that great bark. Also, I've not had one butt yet that had 75% of the moisture of a low and slow butt. I've also propose cooking a butt low and slow on the Gateway and I get a lot of responses about the coals not burning correctly and giving the meat a rancid taste. Is there anything to this? Is there a way to get the bark, the moisture, the fast cook times or is this a pipe dream being sold to the fan base? I love the drum and if its something you want to cook hot, it does an amazing job, but I have a hard time digesting they cook "the best bbq"...

[rickgregory]

They lost me when they said that other thermometers shouldnt be used and you should trust the built in dial. Yeah, no.

Smoking at 350 isn't going to work for traditional, needs time and heat to break down things, meats. Brisket, chuck, pork butt...

By 'isn't going to work' i don't mean they wont be edible, but that you won't get close to the traditional takes on those dishes. Chicken and the like? That will be fine.

I think you can go up to the high 200s and get 'low and slow' results. Too much higher, esp much over 300 and you're basically just roasting. Roast foods are great. They're not low and slow smoked foods, though

[jfmorris]

I get similar results at 275 as I do at 225, or close enough to where its not an issue. But I agree that butts I've done over 300F were dryer and just not as good in my opinion.

Knowing that folks use these drums in competition, I find it hard to believe you cannot dial it in for smoking at 225F. I would think it would be partly how you load and start the charcoal basket, and airflow. It shouldn't be any more "rancid" than someone running a WSM or PBC at 225 using a fan controller. And maybe that is what you need - a temp controller to stoke and control the fire. They may have concerns about not having a clean enough fire at 225F, but I don't believe that would be the case myself. Heck - folks smoke on kamados with very very little air flow and a very small fire, and don't get "rancid" bbq results.

I say start with fewer lit coals in the basket - I assume you are using a minion style setup - and keep the vents closed down enough to maintain 225F using a digital probe, ignoring the bimetal temp gauge.

[glitchy]

Do you still have your other cookers? If so, why not let the gateway shine where it’s best and use something else for brisket and butts?

I agree about the 225-275 range. On my kamado I’m almost always in the 250-275 range now and haven’t noticed any difference in bark and juiciness of the end product compared to 225. I’ve never pushed over 300 though. It sure seems like you should at least be able to get the gateway down to that 275 range. My experience at 225 on the Kamado has produced some mild bitterness or acidic taste. Not strong and enough to not eat the meat, but just noticeable enough that I don’t plan to cook that low on it in the future. The last time was a couple months ago when I hit an issue with my pellet grill starting it up at midnight and then rushing to get the kamado going quickly. I had 225 on the mind as what I’d planned to set the pellet grill to and just setup my Fireboard to run the Kamado at that temp. It took me 2 bites of the pulled pork the next afternoon for it to click in what I had done. I never noticed that in a kettle at 225 though, but a kettle probably burns more than double the charcoal on a long cook meaning a lot more air is flowing. So, there could be truth to what people are saying trying to run 225 with a gateway. Would it still be there at 275 if it is at 225? Hard for someone without a gateway and trying it to say. Everyone’s tastes and sensitivities are different too.

I thought the hot and fast stuff had come from competitions though or at least gained a lot of steam from there? If that is the case, it’s a whole different cook than what most of us usually do at home. The have Wagyu briskets and probably better pork than many of us have at home, Many inject with all kinds of concoctions. They season heavier because it’s for a one bite sample. A lot probably wrap briskets and pour in tallow while doing so. I’ll say at this point after trying the tallow trick, I’m not afraid anymore to cook a flat versus a packer, so would probably help with hot and fast too.

[FireMan]

Well, I think the results are in, chuck the Gateway forum. Don’t have one, but do have a pit barrel. By the tone of yer post ya know what needs to & what should be done. Others will just reaffirm that. Low & slow fer butts & briskets. Hang with the Pit. Shoot, we’re even better than the experts! Cook em ILM!

[ILMsmoke]

We have a local grocery with some butts on sale this week. I think I’ll grab a couple and do some experimenting. I do have a smoke x4 with billows so I’ll fab up a new intake draft vent at work today accept the billows and try a couple at the 250°-275° range and see what happens. I also have a diffuser plate and will be making a 22” drip circular drip pan. I’ll try all the methods one at a time and see what happens. I’ve owned a PBC that I wore completely out so I knew what I was getting. I’ll also add the OG PBC was my very first cooker when they first came on the scene so I’ve had a lot to learn over the last 8-10 years

[fzxdoc]

Since you wore out your PBC with great cooks, I'd say use those same skills on the Gateway to make some fire management changes. With your PBC experience, you know that butts and briskets can turn out beautifully, done at 250-275°. I have run my PBC at 225° a couple of times, but neither it nor I like cooking that way. Too slow without any real gain in the results. Plus the PBC stutters at 225° without an automatic temp control in place--at least mine does.

I would think the Gateway could be tamed to provide solid long cooks in the 250-275° range. Like the PBC, you'd just need to get a good light on the coals and let it burn until you've got clean smoke (or nice white smoke) before adding the meat to avoid what those Gateway commentators call "rancid" tasting meat. By that I'm guessing they mean that either the Kingsford coals have not burned long enough to get that initial chemical burn smell dissipated or that the fire is not burning clean enough.

Let us know how you end up solving this issue.

Kathryn

[ILMsmoke]

I wore out he PBC, but I mainly cooked Prime ribs, turkeys, chickens and ribs on it which it did amazingly! I think I did one brisket on it the entire time I used it. I do agree with you that I think it can be done well low and slow on the Gateway!

[CandySueQ]

I've been beat by ICP lots of times in pork and brisket! Have you tried cooking a butt over water (on a rack) in a pan? I think those guys are cooking smaller hunks of pork and trimming brisket to the max. I've used a Gateway to "sear" the outside of a brisket, which finished over pellets. For more smoke on a Gateway, toss pellets in the coals.

[smokin fool]

Well I have no experience with the Gateway but I've joined the hot and fast camp mainly because our Keg's wheelhouse is 260+.
I'll let it go up to 320ish once and awhile.
Personally I don't think I've seen a change in bark or smoke quality in my cooks.
My uneducated guess is you have to find that cookers wheelhouse and smoke appropriately.

[rickgregory]

Note that the Gateway folks talk about 300 at their (laughs) dial thermometer... (laughs harder) but that appears to take the temp at grate level to 350. So, they have a very different definition of hot and fast than you or I who consider that to be in the high 200s for the most part.

[Dadof3Illinois]

One of the best briskets i've ever done was cooked at or above 325F on a COS. Moist, tender great flavor and flew through the stall without hesitation, the bark was great too. So now I don't fuss too much about temps anymore, seems it just causes me a lot of unnecessary anxiety...as long as I can keep the temps within say 60-70 degree range i'm happy.

[rickgregory]

What grade meat?

[Dadof3Illinois]

rickgregory it would have either been choice or prime.... Never cooked a Wagyu and I gave up on Select 20 years ago unless I'm grinding burger.

[rickgregory]

Interesting. I think the marbling could make a huge difference,

[Dadof3Illinois]

rickgregory oh i agree, marbling or lack there of can make a really big difference. But I"m not comparing a Select to Wagyu, i'm just saying that i've cooked hot and fast with great results...It was actually an article that Myron Mixon had commented about never doing low and slow again after he had been on a winning streak doing briskets at 325. I think he was the one that also said if you do hot and fast don't trim as aggressive and put the fat cap towards the heat.

[rickgregory]

I think we need to be specific about what 'hot and fast' means. I googled around for "Myron Mixon hot and fast". Got this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM_kDElbbMk and in the description he says:

... We ran our Myron Mixon Smokers G33 at 300* with some pecan wood. You can do this recipe on any smoke...r

But 300 and 350 are VERY different temps. Oven roast at 300 and people will consider that a low temp. Many of us here run in the high 200s, around 275. Hell, Aaron Franklin does his 'Q at 275 and is clear that he doesn't think lower helps at all. The difference between 275 and 300 isn't likely to matter much. But 275 to 350 is a HUGE difference and if 300 on the Gateway dial really means a grate temp of 350...

[Mark V]

I won't say that I know what every competitor does for hot and fast, but I have only heard up to 300 in my own limited exposure. In my experience, 300 does fine with shoulder. I do wonder about moisture and bark with lower temps, but maybe not what most would notice. A guy who I won't name who has won about everything over and over says he will cook at higher temps and shorter times and let everyone else do their thing while he wins. His temp was 300, for some things. Not everything.

Cookers make a difference. Maybe yours will do better at one temp than another. Then, it is what you like.

[ILMsmoke]

One thing with comps is that the cuts are different, the size is different and the grade is different. I don't believe that heavy bark is desired for comp turn ins either when it comes to grading.

[DogFaced PonySoldier]

I just threw on a Costco Prime at 350ºF - we'll see how it turns out, I'm hoping to be done in 4h or so. I trimmed it pretty aggressively and am cooking on a Yoder pellet with a water pan underneath and a short smoke tube to see if I can get some additional color and smoke in a short, hot and fast cook.

[Jfrosty27]

I am very interested in how this works out. I would love to have a quick method for brisket available. Please keep us posted! 🤞🤞

[Jerod Broussard]

I've done 5.5hrs on a brisket.