Opinions on Alton Brown's Pizza Episode and First Neapolitan Dough

[hoovarmin]

I have tried and failed (epically) for years to create a pizza crust that I actually wanted to eat. I almost always used Alton Brown's instructions in his pizza episode. He said to get a thin crust, crunchy on the outside and elastic on the inside use bread flour and that the dough has to be worked and worked to develop the gluten - 15 minutes in a stand mixer with a dough hook. Never worked for me. Every time I failed, I swore off trying to make my own pizza for eternity. But every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in. I tried making Meathead 's Neapolitan recipe this weekend and felt like Indiana Jones discovering the Ark of the Covenant. It was awesome, and no kneading whatsoever. I had a really tough time working with it because it was so wet and sticky, but I kind of think that's what made it's texture so great.

I'd really like to hear opinions from all you pizza pros of AB's pizza instructions. I'm sure the fault lies in me, but Meathead has disabused me of a few beliefs AB teaches that I used to hold as Gospel.

[Willy]

There is a lot that goes into making a pizza crust that will work in YOUR cooker at the temperature you choose. The ratio of water to flour is key--the longer the bake (which is to say the lower the baking temperature), the higher the percentage of water required. Also, for very high temps (like 800°--900°F), adding oil to the dough is a big no-no. I think 15 minutes is WAY to long to mix pizza dough. I strongly recommend getting a hold of Ken Forkish's The Elements of Pizza and reading it more than once. Gotta run now, but I'll look at AB's recipe and comment later.

[hoovarmin]

I'll order that book today. Thanks for the recommend.

[EdF]

He beat me to the recommendation!

[Thunder77]

+1 on Ken Forkish book! I have it, and it changed the way I make pizza. You do NOT want to knead pizza dough a whole lot. Bread and pizza crust making are two VERY different things. I think that is where Alton Brown goes wrong.

[Dr ROK]

Haven't tried Alton's recipe, but you will not go wrong with Kenji's cold ferment NY style pizza dough. The food processor takes all the work out of it and cold fermenting in the fridge for 3 - 5 days adds great flavor.

http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-new-york-style-pizza-dough.html

I also use his pizza sauce recipe and it's great too!

http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/10/new-york-style-pizza-sauce.html

[Potkettleblack]

Well, that's not gonna happen. Maybe someone can ask at Stella.

[Dr ROK]

Potkettleblack did I miss something?

[Potkettleblack]

Yeah, Breadhead doesn't live here anymore. It was ugly.

[Sasquatch]

Sorry, you are just going to have to move north. No better pizza in the world then Southwestern CT, NY city area and northern NJ. LOL! I may be a bit spoiled...any way I work part time in a pizzeria with owners that grew up in pizzerias in New Haven. Once a part time pizza maker from the restaurant got an offer to work at another place for a ton of money. He left our place and was back a day later begging for his job back because he didn't know the owners dough recipe. Best to keep experimenting until you find what really works for you or go to your favorite pizzeria and see if they will sell you their dough. I bring some pizza dough home every Sunday night in the summer time and put it in the freezer wrapped in wax paper and plastic wrap. Take it out Friday night and have grilled pizza on Sat afternoon. My daughter and wife love it like that!

[Potkettleblack]

The average Rossopomodoro pizza is better than 90% of the pizza in the "pizza belt." Get thee to Naples, to Rome, to places with better tomatoes, before proclaiming "not better pizza in the world."

FYI: Rossopomodoro is a chain in Italy. There are better places by far in the mother country.

[EdF]

There are a lot of styles, most of them great. In addition to Elements of Pizza, check out www.pizzzamaking.com for all kinds of recipes and tips and review and etc.

[nickgutnick]

The average Rossopomodoro pizza is better than 90% of the pizza in the "pizza belt." Get thee to Naples, to Rome, to places with better tomatoes, before proclaiming "not better pizza in the world."

Visited Rome and Naples this summer. Couldn't agree more. Tasted much different, but in a good way.

[Attjack]

In the past I've made good pizza dough, but it had been years, and I don't know what recipe I used. I used a bread maker on the dough setting. It would knead the dough, warm it up, let it rise, and knead it again (twice IIRC). I would lay pizza stones on my gas grill and get them as hot as possible. The results were pretty good. Now I have a Blackstone pizza oven, and it gets HOT. Pizzas are cooking in 2 minutes. I have been buying pre-made dough at the market. I decided I wanted to make my own dough again. Now I have a kitchenaid mixer, so I wanted to use that. I followed this NYT Cooking recipe.

https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough

I ordered 00 flour and followed the recipe exactly except my kitchen scale was on the fritz. I think this is where I must have gone wrong. I used measuring cups to measure the ingredients. The dough was way too dry, and I threw it out. My sister was coming for dinner, and she grabbed some supermarket dough, so dinner was saved. But needless to say I'm back to the drawing board when it comes to making pizza dough.

[hoovarmin]

Who would have guessed there was so much to making good pizza? All those recipes claim "easy." BS!

[Willy]

Yep, measuring by weight is critical.

[EdF]

It's an art, like many of the things we like to do. Enjoy the process!

[Willy]

I agree with Dr ROK 100% re the Serious Eats recipe. I think AB is way off base regarding a 15 minute knead. You don't want heavy gluten development; it makes it too hard to form the crust. As a point of comparison, Forkish's technique is to hand mix for about a minute and hand knead for another minute or so. A single dough ball should weigh about 285 grams and be roughly at 70% hydration for a 550°F bake (about seven minutes to cook). Flour your peel generously, but spread it thinly and remove any excess. Re-flour spots as necessary. Do a few dough balls at once and practice forming; it gets quite easy with a little experience.

If you want to do a true Neapolitan style and bake at 800°--900°F, cut the hydration to about 57%.

With only slight exaggeration, I think Forkish's book is as much a game changer when it comes to pizza as AR is for BBQ.

[Potkettleblack]

On the other hand, one of the Modernist Cuisine @ Home recipes (that worked really well) has you add extra gluten. It's been a while since I made it, and I'm hoping to get the Forkish book for a holiday, having gotten the bread book previously.

[Thunder77]

What Willy just said...

[Willy]

Potkettleblack Yeah (sigh), so many experts, so little agreement... I had a LOT of difficulty deciphering which expert to trust when I started doing sourdough. Now I've come up with "Willy's way", which works for me. When it comes to pizza, Forkish has given me an understanding of the basics (I think--lol) and I'm very happy with that--even if AB's recipe turns out a stellar crust.

See if your library has the Forkish book. I checked it and Reinhart's book out before deciding to go with Forkish.

[EdF]

Forkish's is way mo betta!

[Willy]

Here are a couple of video clips for forming the crust:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI5XdRPsVwk

http://www.finecooking.com/article/how-to-shape-pizza

I do mine closer to Forkish's than Reinhart's, but I probably do more stretching on the board than in the air. I also start right on the peel so I have no transfer step. The Forkish link has a number of other videos to watch re the pizza making process.

It seems "hard" at first, but it gets easy very quickly.

[hoovarmin]

Thanks!

[FireMan]

Don't know much about AB's recipe or the other guys book but Forkish I found most interesting, getting into the science of Pizza. I picked up the e-book for $1.99.

[hoovarmin]

My wife is shaking her head saying "so much for going low-carb."

[Potkettleblack]

The struggle is real.

[JCBBQ]

I started following Breadhead 's advice about pizza and it upped my game 1000%. He referred us to Stella Culinary. Stella Culinary has great recipes and video tutorials. I just follow their recipes and the pizzas turn out great.

https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-videos/stella-bread/sb-016-how-to-make-neapolitan-pizza-dough

Make sure you get 00 pizza dough if you end up cooking at super high temps.

[JCBBQ]

Any time, EdF

[hoovarmin]

Thanks JCBBQ I just watched the video. Quite a different take on Neapolitan than Meathead's recipe. Amazing how many variations are out there.

[Thunder77]

Love Stella Culinary!

[Attjack]

This Forkish guy is from my town. I'm going to hit up his pizzeria then it sounds like I might want to buy his book.

[Thunder77]

I might be castigated for this, but I now use my Ken Forkish books more than Meathead's book. :-)

[Potkettleblack]

If you're making more bread than 'cue, that makes sense.

[hoovarmin]

Thunder77 looking forward to trying out the parchment paper

[Attjack]

My girlfriend just bought me a copy of Ken Forkish's pizza book. Looking forward to learning what he has to teach.

[EdF]

I noticed! ;-)

[hoovarmin]

EdF, gotcha! Seriously though, I sweated that one out. Saw it yesterday and thought better of a making a smart__s comment. Glad we can have so much fun here! I am about to post my latest attempt at Neapolitan pizza and would really like to get your feedback.

[EdF]

No prob, Mon!

[Attjack]

Yeah she is. She also bought me poultry shears since she has been wanting me to spatchcock and smoke a chicken.
I have 4 store bought crusts in the fridge so I won't be trying my own dough for a little bit. I'll do some reading first.

[hoovarmin]

Sounds like you got the right gal! Being a foodie and trying to make it work with a non-foodie is heavy sledding. My wife loves it when I cook and supports me in it 1000%. It really makes a difference.