Brisket FAIL, please god help me

[Troutman]

PaynTrain the use of phosphates has been debated here before. It's a food safe additive that has a fair amount of chemistry involved with it, but in essence what it does is to help water molecules bond to the cell walls of the meat proteins, unlike a regular brine injection alone that only attempts to physically infuse moisture into the meat. There is a lot of data on this, if interested just Google it in.

As far as how much, again that's up for debate but the general consensus seems to be 0.3-0.5% by total weight of the finished product. That's kind of tricky to calculate so I dug further and found that a tablespoon per gallon of injecting solution is the equivalent or a bit less than a teaspoon per quart (which is what I usually mix up). If you have an accurate scale that's right around 3.7 grams by weight.

Now having said all that, that's my research and my way of doing things. I do not endorse running out and buying your own and trying it unless you feel comfortable doing it. It's relatively safe, don't want to scare you, but I suggest you try some of the injection products on the market that contain phosphates like Butcher's BBQ or Kosmos Q. Some say they can taste the difference, I can't personally. Comp guys love it because it gives them that extra 10% edge in competition. I don't like the products because they contain other things I shy away from like MSG (although thinking on the use of MSG has come full circle recently, but that's a whole other discussion).

Hope this helps. Again it's not a MUST that you use this. Just get some low sodium beef stock and do some injection and see if it makes a difference for you. Good luck and let us know how you fair in your next attempt !!!

[texastweeter]

hahaha, and I ADD MSG to my injection. To each their own. See, like everyone has said, its about personal preference.

[Dr ROK]

Where do you get your phosphates and are they just called food grade phosphate?

[Troutman]

Dr ROK I buy mine through Amazon, yes it's food grade.....

https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Tripolyphosphate-Made-BELGIUM-1-1lb/dp/B0147LR9MY/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1525981889&sr=1-1&keywords=Sodium+Tripolyphosphate+-+Made+in+BELGIUM+-+500g%2C

[radshop]

I usually end up in the 8-9 hour range

Given the temp ranges you mentioned, this seems quicker than average. What I'm getting at is that it may hit a target temp (in some parts or throughout) in that time, but not have enough time for the collagen to break down.

Also, if cooking a whole packer is your goal because that's what you want to do, then you should keep practicing and using the tips here. But if the main goal is getting dinner on the table, then separating the flat and point can give you better control and reduce cooking time a little.

[PaynTrain]

I am definitely trying to master a packer. Meat on the table is just an add on after the fact.

[radshop]

Yes! Love to hear that @PaynTrain
Keep it up and you'll get there.

[PaynTrain]

Huskee see this add from my butcher I referred to. I assume this grade is good enough, and how would I wet cure this, as it is fresh cut and wrapped in butcher paper?
WHOLE BEEF BRISKET—USDA Prime Meyer Natural Angus



A Meyer Natural Angus whole brisket typically weighs eight to twelve pounds and has outstanding flavor. Meyer is ideal for the backyard barbecue meat smoking enthusiast as it’s a bit smaller on average than our Wagyu Briskets but equally delicious. Like all Meyer products, this brisket comes from 100% Angus cattle that were raised humanely without hormones or antibiotics.

MNA Prime Whole Briskets………..6.99/lb

[Huskee]

You can't when it's in butcher paper. Next time you get one in the cryovac you can wet age it. Or ask the butcher to not remove it from the cryovac.

[dbray45]

I am interested in this as well. When I get my brisket, the butcher is cutting it fresh off the side - they slaughter their own beef. Is there a way to wet age this?

[HorseDoctor]

I have read & re-read this thread trying to find something to add. I can't help but think that you are not cooking long enough. I try to cook at 275 F (or more) and have never (never, ever!) had a packer "done" in 8-9 hours. As stated, tender is a function of the amount of time the meat spends at a temp above about 160F while the connective tissue (collagen) slowly breaks down to gelatin. Thus the rationale for "low & slow"! Wrapping (paper or foil) after you have good bark, will help preserve some moisture during this prolonged time but doesn't have a huge effect on tenderness. Injecting may also help with maintaining good moisture during a prolonged cook and aging may help a little with tenderness, but neither is a substitute for a long time gently melting collagen in the 160 - 200F (+/-) range. The 1-5 hour hold time wrapped up in the faux cambro is also a critical part of this prolonged period in the correct temperature range! If it's probe tender when you pull it, it will only get more tender during the hold. I don't believe that Aaron Franklin injects briskets and don't think that he has the cooler space to wet age briskets for very long when he's serving near 100 a day, 6 days a week. Franklin says that his cookers run 275-325F and his (high choice) briskets usually take 18 hours from start to serve. The popularity of his brisket speaks for itself! Try to mimic the "masters". Good luck!

[HorseDoctor]

and lose out on the best pieces of cut brisket? No thanks!

[Dr ROK]

HorseDoctor, I hear ya, but you can't have burnt ends if ya be slicing up the point.

[HorseDoctor]

To each their own!!! I can make burnt ends out of a piece of chuck. Slices of "juicy" brisket only come from the point end of a packer! IMO: Number 1 reason to cook a packer!!!

[fzxdoc]

I like injecting my briskets, both for the Pit Barrel Cooker and for the WSCGC in kamado or in kettle/SnS mode. I usually inject with phosphates plus homemade (low sodium) beef broth after dry-brining for 24 hours. I like beef to taste like beef, so I'm careful about adding non-beefy flavorings.

You can get phosphate for injection from www.butcherbbq.com . They now sell beef injection, which I have not tried. I have enjoyed using their Prime Brisket Injection powder (solubilized) in the past, but it contains a lot of salt, so if you have dry-brined your brisket, take care. You can always add salt but you can't take it away, as Meathead says.

I love Meathead's Big Bad Beef Rub or Oakridge BBQ's Black Ops Brisket Rub. The Black Ops product has a lot of salt so I use it first as a dry brine and then sprinkle more on top before adding to the smoker. Meathead's recipe contains no salt so you can dry-brine with abandon and then add tons of his (salt-free) rub which is (IMO) freeking delicious.

Many people don't inject briskets, certainly not with phosphates. But, as Meathead says:

Many competition cooks like to inject brisket with an internal marinade by using large hypodermics and other gimcracks. These "pumps" add moisture, break down tough fibers, and add flavor. Many of the champs have been injecting the meat with a product called Fab B Light or Butcher BBQ Brisket Marinade, both moisturizers, tenderizers, and flavor enhancers. Fab B contains hydrolyzed soy protein, vegetable oil, sodium phosphates, monosodium glutamate, autolyzed yeast extract, xanthan gum, disodium inosinate, and guanylate. Butcher contains hydrolyzed vegetable protein (hydrolyzed soy and corn protein and salt, with partially hydrogenated vegetable oil [cottonseed, soybean] added), monosodium glutamate, sodium phosphate, and xanthan gum. Some traditionalists think this is way too Barry Bonds and are repulsed by the idea. The results speak for themselves. They are winning. A lot.

Kathryn

[fzxdoc]

There's nothing as good as home made beef stock, I agree, texastweeter . I always have a bunch of 4-cup portions, frozen flat in plastic bags, stored in my freezer. Hadn't thought to add MSG to the injection potion. Thanks.

Kathryn

[PaynTrain]

fzxdoc I am interested in what you do for your homemade beef stock!

[fzxdoc]

PaynTrain , I use a recipe similar to this one: http://www.finecooking.com/recipe/beef-stock except that I use tomato paste in place of the tomatoes, red wine in place of white wine, and add about 1 lb of seared stew beef to the pot to up the beefy ante.
HTH,
Kathryn

[Sephon]

I'm going to jump on the same bandwagon. I think it's tough because it hasn't cooked long enough. I say that, because I did the same things for a long time. I kept thinking I over cooked it, so I went shorter and shorter. It never worked, and probe tender seemed legit, but never great.

Until I just let it cook. And I learned what probe tender meant when it was LITERALLY like probing warm butter. IT was around 206 on my first edible brisket. So now, I start probing around 190.

Once you hit true "Probe Tender" you'll never forget it.

[PaynTrain]

I think this is the consensus as well, and am freaking excited for my next cook!

[Troutman]

I agree with you 100% HorseDoctor except for the Franklin quote of 18 hours at higher heat. I was just at Kreuz's in Lockhart about a month ago where they cook their's hot and fast. I talked to the pit master and he said he wasn't sure what temp they were cooking at but would estimate as high as 330-350* (they had NO thermos on their pits, they just know what they know what they know). He stated that generally they start briskets at 6am and have them ready for lunch service between noon and 2pm (6-8 hours). I don't think Franklin could afford 18 hours to cook briskets.

That being said, your point is well taken. It generally takes 12+ hours for me to do low and low brisket in the 12-14# range. That's why I've switched to 275-300* and foil pans. Cuts out a couple of hours for me. But YMMV.

[HorseDoctor]

The comment came from a YouTube video of an interview with Franklin. I took it to include the time they are held in cambro prior to cutting/serving. I usually allow 16-18 hours for a packer. Sometimes up to 6 of them will be in the faux cambro but briskets are done and guests don't wait.

[Troutman]

Yea I just saw a Kosmo Q video where he cooked one at 350* in 5 hours on a stick burner. Of course he only smoked it for 2 hours to get some color then wrapped it in foil and a quart of his magic concoction Kosmo Q liquid for the remaining 3 hours. In essence he braised it until done. It looked like a giant pot roast, no bark whatsoever, but I admit it looked super tender.

[Mosca]

Also, wrapping, injecting, spritzing, etc., are nuances, not techniques. Those things alone won't turn a bad roast into a good roast; they make a good roast into a better roast.

I've settled on something that works for me: I split the point and the flat, I inject them, and I don't wrap them. Would something else work better? I don't know, because this works and I don't want to change it. I did wrap the last one, because my fire cratered and I had to finish it in the oven, and it came out fine.

According to Aaron Franklin, there are many paths to great brisket. The trick is finding the one that works for you. But he also says that every cook is different, and the key to a successful cook is being able to go with the flow when things go sideways, like I had to when my fire cratered. Get one right, and all the rest will be easy.

[texastweeter]

OK, ok, I figured it all out for you. You can throw out ALL the above advice from everyone. I know EXACTLY what you are doing wrong. Its the whisky; in particular, not enough of it. After a 1/2 a bottle of fine American bourbon, EVERYTHING taste great!!!! JKJK (backing slowly out of the room with my hand suspiciously on my hip...)

[PaynTrain]

Haha texastweeter one thing I guarantee is NOT part of my brisket problems, is alcohol consumed!!

[Dr ROK]

What a great thread! Perfect timing for my cook this weekend.

[DWCowles]

I agree with all of the experts above....nothing to add.

[Powersmoke_80]

I agree with above in that running at 225, 8 hours is not enough and the probe sounds to close to the meat for an accurate read. I ran a couple 14 lb primes a few weeks back with the point separated and one took 8.5 and the other 10 hours running at 275+. We will be cooking 2 choice briskets that are supplied at the Dark Horse Brewing contest this Saturday and will be running at 275+ as I feel I get better results. Also when you start probing for temp at about 190 and feeling for tenderness, start at the thin end as that will soften first then check a few spots closer to the point and you should be able to feel the difference. I pull when all of it feels tender. I'm not afraid to poke a bunch of holes to tell if its done, lol. Stick your probe in it to feel how tough it is at 165 before you wrap just for a gauge on toughness. Good luck and smoke out! As a side note we will also be injecting this weekend with an injection made with Minors beef base, Minors Au Jus base, 450 super phosphate, msg and Worcestershire sauce and slathered with home made Beefonaise as a binder and rubbed with BBBR and black Ops brisket rub. I will let you know how it turns out as I don't usually inject.

[Mosca]

Good points all. I use the pit temperature to adjust the finish time; if I want a quicker cook I run 275, if I want a slower cook I run 225. So if I start at midnight I'll do 225; if I start at 6AM, I'll run 275.

[PaynTrain]

Dang, probing before it may be tender is one of those "duh, why didn't I think of that" thoughts!!!! Beautiful!!

[lual]

Fantastic thread, Everybody! Thanks very much to Everyone involved for their super input...

[Gunderich_1]

PaynTrain I see you have gotten a lot of good advice here but I will offer my two cents worth. First I don't do offsets so this is from a different perspective. I use the Weber with the Slow N Sear and the PBC. First I always go with the KISS method. For my rub I only use salt, pepper, and garlic powder. I have put it in on and left it in the fridge for hours or thrown it on the smoker right after I trimmed it and let it warm up awhile. I don't inject. I tried that one time and the family didn't like it as well. I have done both wrapped and unwrapped. I typically let it go unwrapped and spritz it every hour to hour and a half with either water or apple juice. I let temps run anywhere from 250 - 300 F with no ill effects. The cook times have been anywhere from 12 -16 hours depending on the size. The temps range anywhere from 195-205 depending on how they feel when I probe. All my "packers" have always been Wally World grade, LOL. So far all have turned out very well. There are several Youtube videos from Aaron Franklin that you might want to watch if you haven't already. That's what I did for my first one and it turned out great. He is "THE" Brisket Guru in my opinion and he uses offsets. Good luck and don't get bummed. You'll get there.

[holehogg]

I have learnt a lot about what I thought I knew from this thread. Great advice all round from the pit members. This is what makes it worth being a member.