> Weber Genesis EP-330
> Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker with Alpha/Connect
> Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
> WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative (I'll never see it again))
> Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
> Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
> Thermoworks Smoke
> 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
> Thermoworks Thermapen One
> Thermoworks Thermapen Classic
> Thermoworks Thermopop
> Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
> Anova sous vide circulator
> Searzall torch
> BBQ Guru Rib Ring
> WÜSTHOF, Dalstrong, and Buck knives
> Paprika App on Mac and iOS
My toys:
Weber Summit Charcoal Grilling Center (WSCGC) aka Mr. Fancypants
Pit Barrel Cooker (which rocks), named Pretty Baby
Weber Summit S650 Gas Grill, named Hot 'n Fast (used mostly for searing and griddling)
Weber Kettle Premium 22" named Kettle Kid, eager to horn in with more cooks in the future
Camp Chef Somerset IV 4-burner outdoor gas range named AfterBurner due to its 30kBTU burners
Adrenaline BBQ Company Gear:
SnS Low Profile, DnG, and Large Charcoal Basket, for WSCGC
SnS Deluxe for 22" Kettle
Elevated SS Rack for WSCGC
SS Rack for DnG
Cast Iron Griddle
Grill Grate for SnS
Grill Grates: five 17.375 sections (retired to storage)
Grill Grates: six 19.25 panels for exact fit for Summit S650
gasser
Grill Grates for 22" Kettle
2 Grill Grate Griddles
Steelmade Griddle for Summit gas grill
Fireboard Gear:
Extreme BBQ Thermometer Package
Additional control unit
Additional probes: Competition Probes 1" (3) and 4" (1), 3 additional Ambient Probes. 1 additional Food Probe
2 Driver Cables
Pit Viper Fan (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Pit Viper Fan new design (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Thermoworks Gear:
Thermapen MK4 (pink)
Thermapen Classic (pink too)
Thermoworks MK4 orange
Temp Test 2 Smart Thermometer
Extra Big and Loud Timer
Timestick Trio
Maverick ET 73 a little workhorse with limited range
Maverick ET 733
Maverick (Ivation) ET 732
Grill Pinz
Vortex (two of them)
18" drip pan for WSCGC
Ceramic Spacers for WSCGC in Kamado Mode: 2 sets each 1/2", 1", 2". The 2" spacers work best with the 18" drip pan. The 1+1/2 inch spacers work best with the 14 inch cake pan.
Two Joule Sous Vide devices
3 Lipavi Sous Vide Tubs with Lids: 12, 18 and 26 quarts
Avid Armor Ultra Pro V32 Chamber Sealer
Instant Pot 6 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Instant Pot 10 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Charcoal Companion TurboQue
A-Maze-N tube 12 inch tube smoker accessory for use with pellets
BBQ Dragon and Dragon Chimney
Shun Classic Series:
8" Chef Knife
6" Chef's Knife
Gokujo Boning and Fillet Knife
3 1/2 inch Paring Knife
well I’m not yet convinced that this is universal. I can draw any line through one data point. I’d love to see/hear other direct comparisons.
I admire your caution in making a generalization at this point; it shows a true scientist at work. However, your findings are corroborated by Meathead in this post, so you're well on the way to getting closer to a conclusion.
That said, we're talking about a subjective evaluation at the end of the tests, so all bets are off. As with most things BBQ-related, it comes down to pleasing ourselves, our families, our customers. So doing what works for each of us is a good way to go, IMO.
I anxiously await more data! Remember, my goal in the booklet was to make SVQ less complicated and less intimidating. Same thing with much else on the website. Sure. Texas Crutch can make ribs better, but is it worth the extra effort on a Tuesday night? And preciesly how long? Worth the fuss? Worth the expense/environmental impact? That said, I am always interested in learning how to cook better so if Smoking and seasoning first is significantly better, I'd like to know it.
In my opinion, based on numerous attempts and various proteins (many of which are documented here) I’ve found pre-smoking before a sous vide bath, WHEN ATTEMPTING A RARE OR MEDIUM RARE FINISH, advantageous. Lower internal temps occur in a shorter amount of time, thus smoke and bark development seem hindered with only a post smoke.
If, on the other hand, I’m cooking a steak on a Tuesday night, no way I would bother. Conversely I wouldn’t do it for conventional high temp finishes on brisket or chuck. At that point there is no advantage.
QVQ and SVQ for me are a weekend technique. Week days are for quick sears and simple meals.
I’m specifically targeting the methods where you never exceed 135, because once your cross 140, you are into well done territory and you lose the method advantage for retaining moisture.
I did all my testing with 3-4 variables side by side in the same bath. Pretty easy. Take a slab of meat like a brisket flat, cut it in 4 equal parts (weigh them), and smoke one, smoke & dry brine one, smoke and rub one, just dry brine one, just rub one. Then pick the winner and repeat with smoking and grilling after. Pick the winner and repeat with rubs and/or oils.
I did all my tests before dinner over the course of about 2 weeks. My wife and tasted blind. Unfortunately, I knew which was which. We agreed on almost all taste tests. It was my conclusion that the improvements in quality by pre-smoking, pre-rubbing, and oil in the bag were very small if at all. And that makes sense. Smoke is mostly water soluble, so are rubs. None of them penetrate far, and there is a lot of water in the bag, so the taste results lined up with the theory pretty well. The big differences were that you could get a smoke ring if you smoke in advance and you could not if you smoke after. If you add a sauce, no way in hell you could taste a diff. And skipping the pre-sm oking, pre-rubbing, and oils in the bag just made everything simpler.
Welp, Y'all convinced me to give SVQ chuckie a try. Should be ready to come out of the hot tub Wednesday when I get home from work. Dry brined chuck I took out of the freezer and straight into the SV.
Hmm. Maybe I should grab another chuckie and smoke it in the traditional manner and see which I like best.
I should add that my experiments with timing were similar. I began by making a spreadsheet of the recommended timing from about 5+ respected sources. I sited them in the booklet in my discussion of timing for ribs. I did at least three tests for most meats. The lowest time recommended, the highest, and something in the middle.
As for temps, I did pretty much the same thing but I never cooked under 131F because of the microbial issues cited in the table in the booklet. Again, I wanted to distill it down to some broad guidelines. I was not obsessed with getting the absolute best temp and time. When I was done I showed my chart to Chef Dave at PolyScience, Grant at ChefSteps, Kenji, Clint, and a few others. I read almost every post in here. They offered some course correction and feedback.
I also checked with youse guys by reading almost every SV post in here. I remain in total AWE of your expertise. What an amazing body of info you are.
Tried a side by side with a couple of the recently available store corned beef packages.
purged then applied the full QVQ to one and SVQ to the other. Both got the bath for 135x72 and none of the Qs allowed to progress beyond 133F (med rare limit for entire cook).
of course this is store bought corned beef and the pieces weren’t identical.
Left below is QVQ, right is SVQ.
as in the pulled chuck example I did, the difference in taste and texture was noticeable but not dramatically so. Bark was slightly better on the QVQ (I applied the rub to both before any cooking, and did not reapply any) Without a side by side it would be hard to compare.
still need to do this with plain brisket, so there’s less going on to mask any advantage.
Yea I'd love to see the results on plain brisket. Did you detect more or less smoke in either one? Looking at the bark that emphasizes what I've been saying, bark and smoke are enhanced with the QVQ process over just SVQ. There's demonstrated proof.
My toys:
Weber Summit Charcoal Grilling Center (WSCGC) aka Mr. Fancypants
Pit Barrel Cooker (which rocks), named Pretty Baby
Weber Summit S650 Gas Grill, named Hot 'n Fast (used mostly for searing and griddling)
Weber Kettle Premium 22" named Kettle Kid, eager to horn in with more cooks in the future
Camp Chef Somerset IV 4-burner outdoor gas range named AfterBurner due to its 30kBTU burners
Adrenaline BBQ Company Gear:
SnS Low Profile, DnG, and Large Charcoal Basket, for WSCGC
SnS Deluxe for 22" Kettle
Elevated SS Rack for WSCGC
SS Rack for DnG
Cast Iron Griddle
Grill Grate for SnS
Grill Grates: five 17.375 sections (retired to storage)
Grill Grates: six 19.25 panels for exact fit for Summit S650
gasser
Grill Grates for 22" Kettle
2 Grill Grate Griddles
Steelmade Griddle for Summit gas grill
Fireboard Gear:
Extreme BBQ Thermometer Package
Additional control unit
Additional probes: Competition Probes 1" (3) and 4" (1), 3 additional Ambient Probes. 1 additional Food Probe
2 Driver Cables
Pit Viper Fan (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Pit Viper Fan new design (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Thermoworks Gear:
Thermapen MK4 (pink)
Thermapen Classic (pink too)
Thermoworks MK4 orange
Temp Test 2 Smart Thermometer
Extra Big and Loud Timer
Timestick Trio
Maverick ET 73 a little workhorse with limited range
Maverick ET 733
Maverick (Ivation) ET 732
Grill Pinz
Vortex (two of them)
18" drip pan for WSCGC
Ceramic Spacers for WSCGC in Kamado Mode: 2 sets each 1/2", 1", 2". The 2" spacers work best with the 18" drip pan. The 1+1/2 inch spacers work best with the 14 inch cake pan.
Two Joule Sous Vide devices
3 Lipavi Sous Vide Tubs with Lids: 12, 18 and 26 quarts
Avid Armor Ultra Pro V32 Chamber Sealer
Instant Pot 6 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Instant Pot 10 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Charcoal Companion TurboQue
A-Maze-N tube 12 inch tube smoker accessory for use with pellets
BBQ Dragon and Dragon Chimney
Shun Classic Series:
8" Chef Knife
6" Chef's Knife
Gokujo Boning and Fillet Knife
3 1/2 inch Paring Knife
Thanks for continuing the research for us Polarbear777 . I always look forward to seeing your posts.
Kathryn
ETA: I like this type of research even though it's not as rigorous as Meathead's is. It's just plain fun to see the results of a side by side test even if it's not on the same piece of meat.
I used the same piece of meat for the straight brisket test below. Even then it’s impossible to cut two large pieces the same. The flats sides were more similar than the points sides of course.
I also wanted to use large pieces because that’s generally what I cook. Though, smaller pieces may show more of a difference actually because of the bark.
SVQ on left, QVQ on right. Same process never exceeding 135F. I split the brisket lengthwise and then divided in half.
1. Bark on the right is better. Definitely noticeable. Even though the left bark was a little softer it was still delicious.
2. Smoke flavor difference barely noticeable. I think because I was running smoke outside and smoke was on me anyway. However. Nobody else noticed any difference either.
3. Pronounced smoke ring on right. If you want that presentation you’ll have to smoke first. Of course this doesn’t impart any noticeable flavor difference.
is it worth the effort of the initial Q? Yes and no
Yes: if you need the better bark and/or want the smoke ring
No: the left is almost as good and if you wanted to cook straight from frozen (assuming you dry brined it and rubbed it before freezing) I think the convenience of that would outweigh the marginal gains.
is it better than traditional?
Yes: If it fits your schedule better.
Yes: if you want brisket to be super juicy. Never passing 135F keeps it dripping with juice. Especially advantageous I think if you have a thin flat to cook.
No: if you like extreme bark, you’ll need to smoke the traditional way. QVQ and SVQ will get you good bark but it’s not as thick and not quite as dry/crunchy.
In ALL cases, the finishing smoke is required or you won’t have bark.
My toys:
Weber Summit Charcoal Grilling Center (WSCGC) aka Mr. Fancypants
Pit Barrel Cooker (which rocks), named Pretty Baby
Weber Summit S650 Gas Grill, named Hot 'n Fast (used mostly for searing and griddling)
Weber Kettle Premium 22" named Kettle Kid, eager to horn in with more cooks in the future
Camp Chef Somerset IV 4-burner outdoor gas range named AfterBurner due to its 30kBTU burners
Adrenaline BBQ Company Gear:
SnS Low Profile, DnG, and Large Charcoal Basket, for WSCGC
SnS Deluxe for 22" Kettle
Elevated SS Rack for WSCGC
SS Rack for DnG
Cast Iron Griddle
Grill Grate for SnS
Grill Grates: five 17.375 sections (retired to storage)
Grill Grates: six 19.25 panels for exact fit for Summit S650
gasser
Grill Grates for 22" Kettle
2 Grill Grate Griddles
Steelmade Griddle for Summit gas grill
Fireboard Gear:
Extreme BBQ Thermometer Package
Additional control unit
Additional probes: Competition Probes 1" (3) and 4" (1), 3 additional Ambient Probes. 1 additional Food Probe
2 Driver Cables
Pit Viper Fan (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Pit Viper Fan new design (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Thermoworks Gear:
Thermapen MK4 (pink)
Thermapen Classic (pink too)
Thermoworks MK4 orange
Temp Test 2 Smart Thermometer
Extra Big and Loud Timer
Timestick Trio
Maverick ET 73 a little workhorse with limited range
Maverick ET 733
Maverick (Ivation) ET 732
Grill Pinz
Vortex (two of them)
18" drip pan for WSCGC
Ceramic Spacers for WSCGC in Kamado Mode: 2 sets each 1/2", 1", 2". The 2" spacers work best with the 18" drip pan. The 1+1/2 inch spacers work best with the 14 inch cake pan.
Two Joule Sous Vide devices
3 Lipavi Sous Vide Tubs with Lids: 12, 18 and 26 quarts
Avid Armor Ultra Pro V32 Chamber Sealer
Instant Pot 6 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Instant Pot 10 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Charcoal Companion TurboQue
A-Maze-N tube 12 inch tube smoker accessory for use with pellets
BBQ Dragon and Dragon Chimney
Shun Classic Series:
8" Chef Knife
6" Chef's Knife
Gokujo Boning and Fillet Knife
3 1/2 inch Paring Knife
Smokin-It 3D
Weber Kettle with an SNS
Masterbuilt kettle that I call the $30 wonder grill
Bullet by Bull Grills gasser
Anova WiFi sous vide machine
Thermoworks Thermapen and Chef Alarm
This is why love this site! So much info to read and figure out a plan based on prior attempts by the members of the Pit! Going the full QVQ with a chuck. Pre-smoke was Thursday morning, is in the bath currently, soaking at 135*. Will be full 48 hours tomorrow morning, may let it go a bit more depending on pinch test, but will ice shock tomorrow and then reheat on Sunday to set the bark. Was thinking I would slice this, but will see how that goes when I pull it from the Weber Sunday.
thanks for the info here guys, from all, and the links to other cooks with similar processes.
Right after the first smoke - using same ingredients as BBBR, just layered vs premixed
And in the bath, with the silicon lid to stop the evaporation and alarm from going off due to lack of water!
How did it turn out? I may have missed the final post. As an aside, I have started putting towels under the SV container. My counter top actually cracked during a long SV cook last summer.
klflowers - it turned out great. I posted in the show us what your cooking thread. 50 hours total bath time and then on the Weber to reheat after a day in the fridge. Really enjoyed it! The tenderness matched with the smoke profile was great!
Like you, I also place a cork board hot plate under the container, cant really tell in the photo, but, like you, I don’t want any issues with the granite.
My toys:
Weber Summit Charcoal Grilling Center (WSCGC) aka Mr. Fancypants
Pit Barrel Cooker (which rocks), named Pretty Baby
Weber Summit S650 Gas Grill, named Hot 'n Fast (used mostly for searing and griddling)
Weber Kettle Premium 22" named Kettle Kid, eager to horn in with more cooks in the future
Camp Chef Somerset IV 4-burner outdoor gas range named AfterBurner due to its 30kBTU burners
Adrenaline BBQ Company Gear:
SnS Low Profile, DnG, and Large Charcoal Basket, for WSCGC
SnS Deluxe for 22" Kettle
Elevated SS Rack for WSCGC
SS Rack for DnG
Cast Iron Griddle
Grill Grate for SnS
Grill Grates: five 17.375 sections (retired to storage)
Grill Grates: six 19.25 panels for exact fit for Summit S650
gasser
Grill Grates for 22" Kettle
2 Grill Grate Griddles
Steelmade Griddle for Summit gas grill
Fireboard Gear:
Extreme BBQ Thermometer Package
Additional control unit
Additional probes: Competition Probes 1" (3) and 4" (1), 3 additional Ambient Probes. 1 additional Food Probe
2 Driver Cables
Pit Viper Fan (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Pit Viper Fan new design (to pair with Fireboard Fan Driver Cable)
Thermoworks Gear:
Thermapen MK4 (pink)
Thermapen Classic (pink too)
Thermoworks MK4 orange
Temp Test 2 Smart Thermometer
Extra Big and Loud Timer
Timestick Trio
Maverick ET 73 a little workhorse with limited range
Maverick ET 733
Maverick (Ivation) ET 732
Grill Pinz
Vortex (two of them)
18" drip pan for WSCGC
Ceramic Spacers for WSCGC in Kamado Mode: 2 sets each 1/2", 1", 2". The 2" spacers work best with the 18" drip pan. The 1+1/2 inch spacers work best with the 14 inch cake pan.
Two Joule Sous Vide devices
3 Lipavi Sous Vide Tubs with Lids: 12, 18 and 26 quarts
Avid Armor Ultra Pro V32 Chamber Sealer
Instant Pot 6 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Instant Pot 10 Quart Electric Pressure Cooker
Charcoal Companion TurboQue
A-Maze-N tube 12 inch tube smoker accessory for use with pellets
BBQ Dragon and Dragon Chimney
Shun Classic Series:
8" Chef Knife
6" Chef's Knife
Gokujo Boning and Fillet Knife
3 1/2 inch Paring Knife
Did a sous vide chucky...cold smoked 2 hours in the MES40, bagged it with a pack of onion soup mix then in the bath at 132 for 50 hours. Seared on the back side of the grill grates on the Weber Spirit. Very good, fork tender. I’ll do this again! Meanwhile, anxiously awaiting the delivery of a Rec Tec RT-590.
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