Berkshire Butt

[Ricorocks]

Hi Guys,

Before the cook I posted my intentions:

https://pitmaster.amazingribs.com/fo...-pork-shoulder

Several Nays to & mostly Aye to brine, the Berkie

I've read the science of salt, messrs Meathead, Blounder, made sense.

Could be a little is good, but too much is bad.

Mostly recommended is max 24hr brine.

I wonder if science of salt, considered/tested, for longer brine time, which may cause good going to bad.

Salt pulls moisture out of the meat, then re-absorbed, by the meat

smokin fool - I had one reverse sear which was too salty using Morton Kosher, at recommended amount per lbs. I found here 1/2 teaspoon per lbs, which is much less salt than the recipe called for. That was from another science chef Alton Brown. I also Diamond Kosher, is less saltier

PKB - Thanks! I'll look into the spread thing, & next time power through the stall

Next butts, will be no brine, Berkie & Supermarket.

mountainsmoker - What rubs, do you recommend? I believe your not a fan of Spritz, as well? The pellet smoker smokes very little, I thought, a spritz would help help attract the smoke

Also I believe, so many flavors are happening, building, your sandwich, slaw, mop sauce. Could you even notice a difference, from Berkie to Supermarket, butt?

[texastweeter]

I, myself, like mountainsmoker don't spritz or mop. Bark seems to come out much better that way for me. YES I can tell a distinct difference in commodity pork and Berkshire. If you want more smoke in a pellet grill, maybe use an amazin maze. I'm not a pellet pooper man myself, so I am just guessing. I use my maze and or tube to cold smoke cheese in the winter months.

[mountainsmoker]

I use a rub from a recipe in a 1990 Bon Appetit magazine from a well know BBQ team the Jamisons back then. They are much like Franklin and Raichlen are now. I have tweeked it to my preferences and likes. t is 3T each of course black pepper, ,brown sugar(I use Demerara), a good Paprika. 2T of Salt. 1T cayenne or pepper of your choice. I like chipotle. I triple it and mix it up in a pint jar. Wal-Mart sells white lids that seal and I use them for my rubs and .sauces.

[Ricorocks]

texastweeter - Thanks! I also use the amaze tube to cold smoke cheese, unfortunately the tube won't burn, on the grill not enough oxygen, for it to burn.

[rickgregory]

So I get that there's a fetish about doing pork butts at 225, but I've started doing them at 250-275 for a couple of reasons:

1) As you get closer to 200, having a smoker at 225 means you're not adding all that much heat. Think about it - you want it to end up around 200... which isn't that much cooler than the chamber in which you're cooking.

2) It's faster, so doesn't leave as much time to dry out. If you leave the pork butt unwrapped at 225 you're letting it sit in a hot dry compartment for hours to get through the stall.

3) I want to balance the bark formation with the rendering of the fat inside. Ideally, I want the fat and collagen to render roughly when the bark is fully formed.

AS for dry brining... I did a butt the other day at those temps that was dry brined for 48 or so hours (I meant to do this the day before) and it wasn't mushy in the slightest.

[Red Man]

I completely agree on the 225 comment. 200-225 is great for tender cuts of beef or pork because the lower temp will help prevent overcooking the outer layer of meat. For tough cuts being cooked to over 200 IT, 225 just isn’t high enough in my opinion.

[Potkettleblack]

The ones I do for work I set at 275 and forget. And haven’t had a complaint.

The ones for me and the Mrs go 225 until stall, and the. 275. That’s just for extra smoke.

[Meathead]

I usually stay out of these debates, but my 2 cents: Salt amplifies flavor without altering it. Salt alters protein structure and helps it retain moisture. I dry brine almost all meats. 1/2 tsp Morton's kosher per pound of meat. Length of time depends on thickness, salt moves slowly in the fridge, faster while it is cooking. Overnight for a butt should be enough. All this is discussed on the public side of the site. Blonder's video in the Pitmaster Club goes into it too. May not be traditional in NC, but they have been cooking the same way since before measuring spoons were invented. Sometimes progress is good.

[mountainsmoker]

Meathead thanks. I am adverse to dry brining. Do it on beef products. Do a wet brine on small chicken and pork parts like chops and thighs. Tried it once on a grocery turkey and had to throw it out, don't remember which brand it was an H or B.

[Meathead]

mountainsmoker The turkey had probably been injected with salt. I discuss this in detail on my turkey page and warn of "double salt jeopardy". Dry brining is a very important technique to learn

[HouseHomey]

Dry brine away.

Because a method of cooking is good/tested/works it does not make everything else unscientific or untrue.

I brine lots of things for reasons other than making them tender.

mountainsmoker
Brining is not just a method to tenderize meat. Things happen when you brine. While I’m pretty sure I would love your authentic BBQ caution needs to be exercised when presenting opinion/methods of cooking/ and preparing as fact.

Perhaps context could be shed in another post on your methods of cooking so as to introduce long standing regional methods and traditions likely unfamiliar to most of us in other parts of the country. I for one would appreciate that.

I dont make mush, In fact I am in the business of flavor.

Business is good.

[mountainsmoker]

HouseHoney I did in two posts: Smoking pork the NC way and Part 2. They include a little write up from the home of pulled pork and recipes. It has been done this way for decades and no one is about to change there techniques after it has worked all this time. Especially when they are doing 60 or more butts at a time day in and day out.

[Ricorocks]

Well let me add a little heat here:

Meathead - I did read the science of salt, & agree, some recipes call for more salt, & that was a problem fro me. But your 1/2 teaspoon pr lbs. Is spot on! Did the science of salt, look at deleterious effects of over brining (too many hours, in brine) from recommended times, have on meat?

My Butt turned out like use a steak knife & no way, could it be pulled, the bone came out 0 resistance. It seems great results can be had, by using brine or not using brine. We might as well be talking Ford vs Chevy, everyone has an opinion.

From new to me:

Steve Raichlen, "Project Smoke", pg. 88, does not have dry brine, for Pork Shoulder recipe.

Jeff Phillips, "Smoking Meat, pg. 82 does not mention dry brine, for Smoked Butt recipe.

Also PotKettleBlack made a valid point, that supermarket, Butts, are brined, prior, to selling at the supermarket. So it would seem not necessary or as important to brine an already brined Butt.

If brine vs no brine, both get good results, perhaps I got a not so good/tough Butt! The Berkie came from a local ranch, I'll chat with them & see if they recommend brine or no brine, perhaps they will, cut me a brake, so at to keep the customer satisfied.

mountainsmoker - Rub's recommended for butts? NC way part 2, I'll is there a part 1, link?

When the farm replies, I will add it to this post.

After thought the berkie, was not moist more dried out, again it was 3.3 lbs & 1/2 teaspoon per lbs, Diamond kosher salt, for 48hrs in the fridge, resting on a cooling rack, naked.

[Ricorocks]

Sent to "Peach Creek Farm" they supply BBQ joints in Lockhart Texas, & are close to Lockhart

[grantgallagher]

Ricorocks bad butt or just an unlucky cook. there is no way in all hell dry brining made your butt tough. im not going to quibble over personal taste, if anyone prefers no brine over brine i am 100% ok with that. But there is no way that was what messed up your pork.

Just my thoughts.

[Ricorocks]

Reply to post #22, from Peach Creek Farm:

Hi,

I looked up some info on dry brining - this link is quite interesting https://amazingribs.com/tested-recip...ul-wet-brining.

This recipe has more info on the cooking: http://glebekitchen.com/2016/05/03/d...ed-pork-roast/

This recipe looks like a reasonable method: https://kitchensinkdiaries.blogspot....-shoulder.html

Caveat emptor - I have not used the recipes above.

I assume you are working on pulled pork. When we do that, we do not brine - our pork has plenty of fat and retains moisture in a smoker. We cook at around 250-300F and take the internal temperature up to 150-180 max. A long slow cook, like a brisket.

Big take away - dry brining (looks like dry cure to me) removes moisture by osmosis and the internal temp is high - I suspect these combined to give you a dry roast.

Glad you liked the sausage. Good luck!

James Page

Peach Creek Farm
512-332-1945
http://www.peachcreekfarm.us



Note Internal temp, they use, 150 to 180 max & cook temp 250 - 300F, IMO Peach Creek reply seems, right on

[Ahumadora]

For pulled pork you need to be up near 200f internal. 150-180 is for carving.

[texastweeter]

Ahumadora is spot on. I take mine all the way to 208°.

[grantgallagher]

that is a laughable response to me. dry brining and cure are not the same. dry brining removes moisture by osmosis...where did it go? Unless it pooled on the shelf in your fridge...or are we assuming salt increases evaporation at fridge temps now? man oh man

EDIT: im not editing my response, i realize i probably have generalized a ton, but that response made me kinda mad, lol

[texastweeter]

I love how people throw the world "osmosis" around, even when using it incorrectly.

[Meathead]

Ricorocks We are 100% consistent on the salt ratio, I think. I believe ALL our recipes are 1/2 tsp Mortons Kosher salt per pound of meat. Raichlen and Phillips probably never heard of dry brining since I coined the term. But the concept originated with the great Judy Rodgers at the Zuni Cafe in Berkley. It is a concept that is gaining currency. NY Times recently wrote about it and me. It works. Diamond kosher is VERY differnt than Morton's. Conversion table here https://amazingribs.com/more-techniq...s/science-salt

[Meathead]

grantgallagher You are right. Dry brining and curing are very different. Dry brining can pull a little liquid out but it retains far more. Reading assignments for all in this debate:

https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/more-ingredients-glossaries/science-salt

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/salting-brining-curing-and-injecting/dry-brining-easier-and-less-wasteful-wet-brining

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/salting-brining-curing-and-injecting/salting-and-wet-brining

https://amazingribs.com/wet-brining-vs-dry-brining

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/salting-brining-curing-and-injecting/science-curing-meats-safely

There is more on salt scattered around like in the turkey technique page.

I do not want to sound too cocky, but Blonder and I are right and we can prove it. Most others just don't understand the science.

[grantgallagher]

And this is why Meathead rocks

[mountainsmoker]

Yep while I am new to here I have been following for years. I agree with the Doc and Meathead on most things but I have 40 years of experiences also and can't take every thing they say to heart.

[Ahumadora]

You can't argue with scientific facts and results. There is no other reliable source of scientific info that even comes close to the experiments done here at AR. As for the original poster, there are too many varibles we don't know about to pinpoint the problem of dry butt.

[Ricorocks]

Allot of this is not helpful! I had a bad cook following instructions. And do not want to have another bad outcome. And trying to determine what went wrong. I have given as much info, on what happened as possible, If I missed something, ask, I'll try to answer.

The only thing I have a question about, dry brine, seems to be avoided is:

Does/can extended brine time, past recommended time brine time, adversely affect the meat????

Example: IF the recipe calls for 4hrs dry brine, would 24, 36, 48hrs have adverse affects on the meat??????

Was that tested????????

Also since most supermarket Butts are pre brined, is it beneficial or necessary to do a second dry brine??????????

I'm sure everyone makes a delicious Butt, using different methods. The purpose of this thread not to question methodology , but to see where I screwed up.

I'm not debating, I'm asking questions to avoid future problems.

[texastweeter]

Are you sure the probe was not touching the bone? Also, that is an awfully small butt.

[Potkettleblack]

It depends.
Are you using an equilibrium brine or not? With an EQ brine, you will take longer to brine, but will never overbrine. These concepts apply more to curing, but are similarly applicable.

[Ricorocks]

@texastweeeter - yes very sure not touching bone! bone had 0 resistance for removal.
Potkettleblack - the brine in the recipe, 1/2 tsp per lbs

[Ricorocks]

The Berkie was was butchered in mid 2019, & was frozen & remained frozen till, two day before the cook, wrapped in original wrapping & allowed to thaw in the fridge.

Good point on calibration, I used a new instant read, expensive, CDN brand label shows calibrated at factory in 2019. The TS-20 think that's the model Therm pro, with two cords, all were very close.

Excess time seems not scientific answer.

Wrapping during dry brine may be another can of worms opened. If meathead says wrap then, he has science on his side for claiming.

Example: Alton Brown, TV Show Chef "Good Eats" is very science minded & explains the science behind the cooking. From his reverse sear ribs: Note the excessive amount of salt, he says not to wrap, when watching the show, & instructions are missing in the recipe:
The longest brine time I've seen in recipes, is/was up to 24hrs, I've never seen 48 or more hours

[Ahumadora]

Ok, Doesn't matter if it is an expensive thermometer it can still be off. Easy to check it in ice water and then boiling water. That way you can eliminate that potential problem 100% .

[Ricorocks]

True but 3 probes, all being very close, in a couple diff places, seems correct. Or one probe should be considerably different than the others. Also the CDN has label calibrated & dated!

[grantgallagher]

Id actually be tempted to do the exact same thing over again. I know its a horrible risk of wasting some good eats but at least it would allow you to rule in/out a one off unlucky cook.