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Inconclusive Test of AP vs 00 for Hi-Temp pizza

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    Inconclusive Test of AP vs 00 for Hi-Temp pizza

    So, I made two different pizza doughs from Forkish's "24 to 48 hour" recipe. I followed the recipe with two exceptions: 1) I cut the hydration to 58% per his advice elsewhere in the book (baking at 900-ish°F requires a drier dough) and 2) I used two grams of yeast since I have active dry yeast, not instant yeast. My intent was to see if AP flour could withstand the temps required to produce a good, unburned crust at proper Neapolitan baking temps. I am skeptical of the claim that AP flour will burn due to it's"sugar" content. Reading the nutrition labels, the flours I've seen always list "sugars" as zero. Flour is complex carbs, plus protein and whatever, and the sugars don't become available until the enzymes that yield simple sugars from more complex starches are "activated" once the flour is hydrated. The sugars are 100% necessary as they are what the yeast consumes, so, at this point, ALL doughs have sugars. Best I can tell, the only significany difference between 00 and other flours is that 00 is a finer grind.

    I had attempted to do "true Neapolitan" one other time in my BGE and didn't get enough charcoal lit, so it took forever to get the dome temp (per the built in gauge) to 800-ish°F and the stone didn't get beyond 500-ish° as measured by IR gun, so this time I lit an entire chimney of lump, got it really hot, and dumped it into a hollow in the charcoal bed, then covered it with more unlit lump. The first time, I also used the plate setter. I didn't use it this time and I didn't use the top vent and left the bottom vent wide open. Well, boy howdy and golly-be-shucks, it didn't take but 25 minutes or so for the cordierite stone to read 800°F, at which point I went in, formed the crust and put tomato sauce, pepperoni and fresh mozz on it. Took maybe 4-5 minutes. By the time I was ready to load the AP version, the stone read 924°F. I baked it for 90 seconds. The bottom was uniformly charred black, but the top looked fine. Quick like a bunny, I made the 00 pizza "identical" to the first. By the time I was ready to bake it, the IR gun just read "Hi"--I think its max temp is like 961°F. I baked this one for only 60 seconds and...the bottom was uniformly charred like the first one. Again, the top looked fine. FWIW, the built-in temp gauge (a bit difficult to read because one must extrapolate and it was dark) and IR readings seemed to correlate reasonably well.

    Somewhat surprisingly, the burnt layer of BOTH crusts was very thin and did not have too much of an adverse affect on the overall flavor. Next day, after cooling down, the stone had some char on it, but it was very light and mostly so "unattached" that I could just blow most of it off.

    Bottom line--I didn't really prove much mainly because I am evidently at the very bottom of the steep part of the learning curve when it comes to running a kamado at high temp. Low 'n' slow, BBQ range temps have been easy, even controlling up around 500°F has been fairly easy. Not so much for 800°-900°F. Next time I will light of goodly amount of lump AND use the plate setter. One bit of good news is that I have evidently managed to seat the top and bottom of the BGE well enough that the gaskets, while charred a bit on the inside, are still fine and looking good on the outer 1/2-ish inch.

    Suggestions and mockery are welcome!
    Last edited by Willy; September 30, 2017, 05:50 PM.

    #2
    Thanx for doing this Willy. I find it too difficult to get both the Baking Steel and the pit temp above 800*, so I'm not gonna try any more. I think I should be able to get both close to 500*, and I'm not gonna worry about the type of flour.

    BTW - the quest for knowledge is always a good thing - unless you are trying to find out if your tongue will stick to the metal flagpole in 0* F weather.

    Comment


    • Willy
      Willy commented
      Editing a comment
      I did exactly that very thing one very cold winter night in Montana at about age 5. I stuck my tongue on the metal part of a snow sled. OUCH!
      Last edited by Willy; September 30, 2017, 05:51 PM.

    #3
    LOL! Yup it's gettin' t'wards that time of the year! RonB

    Click image for larger version

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    Comment


    • RonB
      RonB commented
      Editing a comment
      That was the picture in mind as I typed.

    • EdF
      EdF commented
      Editing a comment
      Mmmn! Hmmn! Mmmn! Ma MA!

    #4
    Originally posted by Willy View Post
    So, I made two different pizza doughs from Forkish's "24 to 48 hour" recipe. I followed the recipe with two exceptions: 1) I cut the hydration to 58% per his advice elsewhere in the book (baking at 900-ish°F requires a drier dough) and 2) I used two grams of yeast since I have active dry yeast, not instant yeast. My intent was to see if AP flour could withstand the temps required to produce a good, unburned crust at proper Neapolitan baking temps. I am skeptical of the claim that AP flour will burn due to it's"sugar" content. Reading the nutrition labels, the flours I've seen always list "sugars" as zero. Flour is complex carbs, plus protein and whatever, and the sugars don't become available until the enzymes that yield simple sugars from more complex starches are "activated" once the flour is hydrated. The sugars are 100% necessary as they are what the yeast consumes, so, at this point, ALL doughs have sugars. Best I can tell, the only significany difference between 00 and other flours is that 00 is a finer grind.

    I had attempted to do "true Neapolitan" one other time in my BGE and didn't get enough charcoal lit, so it took forever to get the dome temp (per the built in gauge) to 800-ish°F and the stone didn't get beyond 500-ish° as measured by IR gun, so this time I lit an entire chimney of lump, got it really hot, and dumped it into a hollow in the charcoal bed, then covered it with more unlit lump. The first time, I also used the plate setter. I didn't use it this time and I didn't use the top vent and left the bottom vent wide open. Well, boy howdy and golly-be-shucks, it didn't take but 25 minutes or so for the cordierite stone to read 800°F, at which point I went in, formed the crust and put tomato sauce, pepperoni and fresh mozz on it. Took maybe 4-5 minutes. By the time I was ready to load the AP version, the stone read 924°F. I baked it for 90 seconds. The bottom was uniformly charred black, but the top looked fine. Quick like a bunny, I made the 00 pizza "identical" to the first. By the time I was ready to bake it, the IR gun just read "Hi"--I think its max temp is like 961°F. I baked this one for only 60 seconds and...the bottom was uniformly charred like the first one. Again, the top looked fine. FWIW, the built-in temp gauge (a bit difficult to read because one must extrapolate and it was dark) and IR readings seemed to correlate reasonably well.

    Somewhat surprisingly, the burnt layer of BOTH crusts was very thin and did not have too much of an adverse affect on the overall flavor. Next day, after cooling down, the stone had some char on it, but it was very light and mostly so "unattached" that I could just blow most of it off.

    Bottom line--I didn't really prove much mainly because I am evidently at the very bottom of the steep part of the learning curve when it comes to running a kamado at high temp. Low 'n' slow, BBQ range temps have been easy, even controlling up around 500°F has been fairly easy. Not so much for 800°-900°F. Next time I will light of goodly amount of lump AND use the plate setter. One bit of good news is that I have evidently managed to seat the top and bottom of the BGE well enough that the gaskets, while charred a bit on the inside, are still fine and looking good on the outer 1/2-ish inch.

    Suggestions and mockery are welcome!
    Good stuff, Man! It's been at least 4 years since I last did high temp pizzas in the BGE. I did use the plate setter, I used a grid extender to get the stone up high, covered it with foil while it was heating up, then pulled the foil just before dropping the pie on the stone. Worked pretty well (this was after at least 5-6 iterations). But I still think I need to redevelop my technique. The Uuni Pro arrives this month sometime, so that will be the re-engagement.
    Last edited by EdF; September 30, 2017, 07:13 PM.

    Comment


      #5
      I sure hope my pizza game gets to you guys' level. I'm working on it!

      Comment


      • Willy
        Willy commented
        Editing a comment
        It's easier than you think--keep after it. I'm finding a 550°F oven or grill makes superb pizzas. 800-900°F is just a "quest" for fun.

      • hoovarmin
        hoovarmin commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks, Willy. That comment is very helpful. I haven't dived into the science, yet. That was a question I was going to ask and you preempted it. That's why I love The Pit.

      #6
      Willy. Thanks for doing the test. I too have had trouble getting my BGE to such a high temp. I will have to try your full chimney method and see what happens. Usually my dome temp is 500-600 and my pizza stone is 400-500 and I always have used the platesetter. Pizza is still one of my favorites to make. I like doing the dough experiment and we eat whatever is in the frig for toppings. For no good reason we rarely use red sauce. Sometimes sour cream, olive oil, alfredo sauce, or ??. Smoked Mozzarella is a favorite too. In my dough I have found a Bread Flour crust recipe (like Kenji's) with just a little Semolina Flour gives the crust a nice chew. Pizza is always fun.

      Comment


        #7
        I cook on a Kettle, but I appreciate the info. I have not had good results with a stone on the grill. However I have had success with Cast iron, and a perforated pizza pan. Next time I will monitor my cook, but I know it is pretty darn hot.

        Comment


          #8
          Good stuff, Willie. I too doubt that the flour is going to change the char. But it should change the chew.

          Comment


          • Willy
            Willy commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah. I am sure there is a very, very good reason why the Naples pros use 00. I suspect it is beyond my second rate taste buds and powers of gustatory discrimination, especially in a non side-by-side taste test..

          #9
          After mulling this experiment over, I have come to a point where I am considering three approaches for the next effort. I'd appreciate feedback. Let me add up front that I have discovered the the specified temp for the floor of a true AVPN pizza oven is 905°F, not the 800°F frequently bandied about:



          Let me also say that I do not want to regularly cook "true" AVPN pizza; I just want to do it once and, secondly, I want to satisfy my curiosity about using AP flour at that temp. The pizzas I am doing at 550°F are plenty satisfying.

          My three ideas:

          1) Repeat exactly what I described in the OP above. It was very easy to get to 900°F in a short time this way. Once 900°F-ish has been achieved, slap on the top vent (closed all the way) and let the ceramic soak in heat and (hopefully) equilibrate somewhere in the high 800°F range, watching the built-in thermometer as the IR gun will be useless with the top closed and the TW Smoke can't handle 900°F.

          2) Use the plate setter and a full chimney of lump as before. Try to "control" things with the top vent absent, but the bottom one available for adjustment. The top vent MIGHT even get used.

          3) Do a combo of the first and second ways, no plate setter but again using vent(s) as the situation seems to dictate.

          Your thoughts/experience? Has anyone here made a "true" Neapolitan pizza as regards temperature?

          Comment


          • EdF
            EdF commented
            Editing a comment
            The answer to your question from me is "I'm not sure", though I have done the 900 degree thing, and the result was pleasant. Old guys and their memories, ya know.

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