Phosphates for injections?

[jjdbike]

Hello fellow Q enthusiasts,

As I prepare for new next cook, which will be pork butt to start to stick the freezer in my new home, as always, I plan on injecting. As I do my research, I'm hearing about phosphates in injections for moisture retention. From the hip, adding phosphates doesn't sound very healthy, but I really have no idea. There is some good eve dace that phosphates can have some benefits for meat products like moisture retention, color retention and extending shelf life. What I do not know is does it impact the flavor and does it have any negative health risks.

Commercial injection mixes often include phosphates, along w/ aded flavor. If one wanted to add phosphates to their injection, I wonder how you'd do it proportion wise and where you could source it.

Can you folks who know please share info on use of phosphate for injections?

Thanks in advance!
JD

[Spinaker]

They do improve moisture retention inmate products, especially in brines. (Meathead mentions this here.)

As far as health concerns, I am no doctor, so I am not gonna comment on that one.

I have never found the need to inject, especially pork butts. I think there is ton of moisture in most pork butts. That being said, I know a lot of people still inject, it is just not my style. I did try it a few times with Butcher BBQ injection as well as the injection from Meat Church and I really did not care for the taste. It just tasted artificial or fake. I actually threw it out. I am not sure if this came from the phosphates or not, but I know both of these have phosphates in them. Many of these injections have a ton of other things in them as well, many of which I simply do not want to eat. (Listed below) Meat is great on its own, sure we add rubs a smoke, but that is as far as I take it.

Meathead mentions in his article on injections,

Get Flavor Deep Into The Meat With An Injector
"they do contain moisturizers, tenderizers, and flavor enhancers. Fab B contains hydrolyzed soy protein, vegetable oil, sodium phosphates, monosodium glutamate, autolyzed yeast extract, xanthan gum, disodium inosinate, and guanylate. Butcher contains hydrolyzed vegetable protein (hydrolyzed soy and corn protein and salt, with partially hydrogenated vegetable oil [cottonseed, soybean] added), monosodium glutamate, sodium phosphate, and xanthan gum." -Meathead.

Way too "Barry Bonds" for me.

To source it, you can find it online all over the place. Amazon, of course, has it.

This is just my opinion. I am curious to hear what others think. Perhaps some that inject regularly.

[fzxdoc]

Meathead continues the quote that Spinaker posted by saying

"Some traditionalists think this is way too Barry Bonds and are repulsed by the idea. The results speak for themselves. They are winning. A lot."

I use Butcher's BBQ phosphate mixed with homemade beef broth to inject brisket and chuck roast. I have never yet injected a pork butt, but plenty of folks here, like texastweeter do it all the time and swear by it.

I just buy the phosphate from Butcher's. I used to purchase their injection mix, but prefer just the phosphate and my own homemade beef broth. I think it makes a difference, because my briskets and chuckies, whether done on the PBC or the WSCGC are almost unfailingly moist.

A note about technique: I don't inject from the top down on a piece of meat as shown in some videos. Instead, I go in from the side of the piece of meat, along the grain, and inject slowly, pulling the syringe out gradually.

Here's a rough diagram to show the direction of the injection, proving that I am certainly no artist.



I also inject turkey breast with melted butter, for what that's worth.

My recommendation is to give it a try and see if it works for you. It's a simple enough step to add. If you're not impressed, then at least you gave it a go.

Kathryn

[texastweeter]

I use the exact same injection technique. I too just buy the raw phosphates. It gets added to my home made injection mix all of which is natural and starts with scratch made beef, pork, or chicken stock from roasted bones. Spinaker I agree all the OTC injection mixes somehow taste processed lunch meat ish. That is why I made my own. It REALLY comes in handy with very lean wolds game cuts like moose brisket or venison shoulder. Try it again, but just get the phosphates and make it your own.

[STEbbq]

I did try injecting turkey with butter this year which totally failed. I had probably a 10-year old injector with a rubber bulb on the end that I found buried in the pantry and it just didn’t work. I’d squeeze it and butter would come out but nothing would be injected. Ah well.

[texastweeter]

Look up "Butchers BBQ Phosphates" on the interwebs, or Amazon. That is what I use.

[rickgregory]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that a good pork butt needs help with 'moisture'. (it's not moisture, it's fat...)

[jjdbike]

Meathead continues the quote that Spinaker posted by saying

"Some traditionalists think this is way too Barry Bonds and are repulsed by the idea. The results speak for themselves. They are winning. A lot."

I use Butcher's BBQ phosphate mixed with homemade beef broth to inject brisket and chuck roast. I have never yet injected a pork butt, but plenty of folks here, like texastweeter do it all the time and swear by it.

I just buy the phosphate from Butcher's. I used to purchase their injection mix, but prefer just the phosphate and my own homemade beef broth. I think it makes a difference, because my briskets and chuckies, whether done on the PBC or the WSCGC are almost unfailingly moist.

A note about technique: I don't inject from the top down on a piece of meat as shown in some videos. Instead, I go in from the side of the piece of meat, along the grain, and inject slowly, pulling the syringe out gradually.

Here's a rough diagram to show the direction of the injection, proving that I am certainly no artist.



I also inject turkey breast with melted butter, for what that's worth.

My recommendation is to give it a try and see if it works for you. It's a simple enough step to add. If you're not impressed, then at least you gave it a go.

Kathryn

Thanks Kathryn,

So I hear you saying that it makes a noticeable difference with moisture. I'm also assuming that you didn't notice any native impact, such as an off or artificial flavor?

I am still on the fence w/ my upcoming pork but, as several have said, they tend to have enough. On the other hand, who wouldn't like more moisture in their brisket or chucks, even if it is just in case the cut turns out to be dry.

I ordered some that I intend to try with an upcoming chuck smoke & perhaps tri-tip.

Thanks Kathryn and friends!
JD

[SmokeyGator]

Everything is a chemical. Phosphate is a rather common element, and essential to you. Unless you tire of teeth and do not really need bones. Low phosphate is also associated with things like severe malnutrition (as in starvation, not just eating garbage food) and weakness. And probably other things as well.

People just get all weird when they see chemical names. Sounds "unnatural"!! But I can guarantee that if you looked at a list of all the chemicals that make up beef, there would be A LOT of things you cannot pronounce. Organic chemistry LOVES to use very long names for chemicals. I think it is just so when organic chemists get together at the pub after work and start talking, everyone around them will think "WOW! Those people must be genius level smart!" Or maybe people will think "IF you start telling me that what is in my beer, I am going to hurl the pint glass at your forehead." One of the two.

So here is my theory on commercially produced brines and injections. Am I DRINKING it? And I mean will I pull a bottle of whatever out of the fridge after doing yard work on an August afternoon in Florida and then pour myself a nice cold pint of it? Probably not. I do not think anyone does this. And how much gets injected? Maybe one cup in a full brisket? Lets just say yea that is it. Assuming none leaks out during cooking and the process of cooking changes nothing on the chemical level - I would have to eat the entire brisket to get 8 ounces of whatever it was injected with. In reality I am not going to do this, so my intake of "the chemicals" is rather low.

Also you are not eating this stuff daily.

Lastly sodium is a soft metallic element that you can cut with a butter knife, it has a clay like consistency. But if you eat it it WILL KILL YOU. And it will hurt the entire time. It will react explosively with water, creating a lot of heat energy. And then it will turn that water into sodium hydroxide, which is the stuff in oven cleaner spray. The GOOD oven cleaner spray that actually works, and not that "safe all natural" junk that just asks the baked on crud to pretty please go away. I am talking about the spray that says "OK grime, it is time to be dissolved into a goo that humans can easily wipe away with a paper towel". REALLY nasty stuff you do not want to ingest.

Chlorine is an elemental gas, that is greenish yellow in color. Like sodium IT WILL KILL YOU and it will also hurt the entire time. The gas gets into your lungs and causes so much irritation that your lungs fill with fluid so there is no room for any gas. Including but not limited to oxygen. You basically drown on dry land. Really want to avoid the stuff.

But combine sodium and chlorine and you have table salt. It will still kill you, but it won't exactly hurt and will take many decades to develop sky high blood pressure that eventually does you in.

The point is that "chemicals" are not elements. Stuff can be extremely toxic and contain oxygen, or not toxic at all and contain oxygen. Just because you cannot pronounce something, does not mean it is bad. It could be, but then again it does not have to be. Anything super duper toxic will not be food safe.

[SmokeyGator]

rickgregory It is not about the quality of the cut. It is more about the long low and slow cooking process. Also remember that there is competition cooking and backyard cooking. For competition you have to do stuff if you want to win. The judges will only be eating a little bit of your stuff, so it needs to WOW them quickly. Personally, I do not use injections, I just dry brine. And my cooker retains very high humidity (Kamados work on low air flow).

[SmokeyGator]

rickgregory And I am not in a competition. If you do not like the food, feel free to leave! You know where the front door is. Just avoid overcooking and it is usually fine. If I am really worried about drying things out, I can always wrap it. With lean cuts, just do not overcook. Poultry can really dry out on you, but not if you stop at 160. Injections will add flavor though. It is really a preference thing. Try with and without using them, then decide what works best yourself.

[rickgregory]

texastweeter - STOP MAKING ME THINK. Interesting, though.

SmokeyGator - you too!

[captainlee]

My system can react to phosphates, preservatives so i try to avoid them as much as possible. At least the minimums i can get away with. MSG is a definite issue. With that in mind i don't inject anything and am totally satisfied with my cooks. Pork butts and ribs have enough fat, no need to inject unless you want to add some internal flavor with something like apple cider. I only purchase Prime briskets and they come out fine. If you are going to put all that time and effort into a long brisket cook you might as well spend a few bucks more and have the best chance of success. I have to be careful of rub ingredients too. Like Johnny Triggs said,"I've never injected a piece of meat in my life."

[rickgregory]

If you are going to put all that time and effort into a long brisket cook you might as well spend a few bucks more and have the best chance of success."

Precisely this. For example, on chuckies, look for marbling throughout the meat, not just big veins. As for 'but they use it in competitions and win..." remember that judges take 1 or 2 bites per dish.

Now, if one likes the results from injecting? Your meat, your money, your tastebuds. But I'm with the cap'n here - buy good meat that doesn't need it in the first place, then decide.

[captainlee]

I only cook one or two max briskets a year so i don't mind spending the extra $$$.

[texastweeter]

captainlee lol yeah I cook 20+ at a time often and still refuse to use anything but prime. I still inject, but to each their own.

[Washblue]

This is an interesting thread… I totally understand the different points of view…
From the early cave kitchens to the current kitchens requiring electricity & Wi-Fi, we all have succumbed to tricks…

I have a bag of sulfates in the pantry and wicked looking hardware to use it… but…

When I was building my pit, it was because I couldn’t find one that captured more of the cave kitchen than a broadband equipped one…. I needed three factors… wood fire, meat racks above and the ground… which expertly holds the fire…

I have been weaning myself from most of the BBQ tricks I had succumbed to… so I may not replace the supply when it’s gone…

Mostly I cook pork and chicken… I inject beef, but don’t cook it often… and when I do, it’s likely to be a prime rib roast… which doesn’t get anything but salt and pepper…

My pork comes off the fire with juices left over… if there is such thing as excess juices…

Plus the prime rib comes off with plenty of Au Jus…

I’ve read about briskets and chuckie here, but please throw in poultry for me too…

I’ll be rereading for full effect.."

[Washblue]

I also think there’s differences in cookers that affect moisture… some are sealed, some have water pans…

Mine is not sealed at all and only has atmospheric moisture…. I am on a creek….

[texastweeter]

With poultry i inject the breasts. I did a test about a year ago on two birds spun on my rotisserie. Both treated the same and spun at the same time. Almost same weight, same seasoning (alleppo and zaatar). Only difference is I injected one birds breasts to Pam Anderson perportions, the other nothing. As you can imagine the dark meat was identical, the breasts were like two different cooks! The one with the phosphates were plump, juice, and much better texture, not stringy at all.

[rickgregory]

I think we need someone to do an experiment... grab a pork butt or chuckie, divide it in half, inject one, don't inject the other. Treat the same otherwise (rub, etc). Serve to unsuspecting people (and maybe leave the room and have someone make a plate for the experimenter) and see if a) there's a perceivable difference and b) if there is, which is preferred by the tasters.

Anyone done this?

[Jfrosty27]

This sounds like a project for DaveD

[rickgregory]

I almost tagged him...

[texastweeter]

I have on brisket, pork shoulder (commodity and wild hog both) and chicken. I have never on venison shoulder, turkey, or chuck; however I inject them now too. Honestly, I am such a old school guy, I am almost ashamed to admit I inject...I feel like I need to hide on a closet to do it, and the go take a shower and flagellate myself after...but I keep doing it.

[DaveD]

Hey, I would be totally up for doing the experiment rickgregory laid out and for which Jfrosty27 helpfully volunteered me. I'm just the guy to do it, because I have never done an injection on anything and have zero preconceived notions. Got both chuck and butt in the chestie... hmm, maybe I will do one of each? *wheels turning*

So as they say in my world, I'll take that action. Won't be super soon, but stay tuned

[rickgregory]

Hey, I would be totally up for doing the experiment rickgregory laid out and for which Jfrosty27 helpfully volunteered me. I'm just the guy to do it, because I have never done an injection on anything and have zero preconceived notions. Got both chuck and butt in the chestie... hmm, maybe I will do one of each? *wheels turning*

So as they say in my world, I'll take that action. Won't be super soon, but stay tuned

I love it when a plan comes together.

[smokin fool]

No phosphates in my meat plain and simple.
We can debate positives and negatives till the cows, or pigs, come home.
I just do not like them.
If others choose to use them by all means, I will not criticize theyre choice.

[texastweeter]

I can totally respect that. It just makes me wonder when someone who has never used them rails on them, or someone who has only used commercial blends like FAB (never use that again). If you have tried it and dislike it, have zero problems, hell, have respect for being willing to step out and try it. Like a kid saying they won't eat something when the never tried it.

[smokin fool]

Honestly have never tried adding them to a dish.
Nit niave too say they aren't in store brought meats.
That being said don't sit right with me.
Nuff said.

[Richard Chrz]

This thread actually has me wanting to try it, and I’ve never injected anything, nor ever felt I’ve had dry meat. I don’t think I would inject a pork butt though. Just render the fat trimmings and pour it back in as you pull. Pulled pork is just so naturally heavy rendered with fat, or so I think.

[texastweeter]

Try a brisket first. Pay special attention to the flat. Think gelatin in meatballs.

[Richard Chrz]

I’m definitely a gelatin in meatballs believer.