Food safety question....

[rickgregory]

So, I smoked some cured corned beef the other day, then vacsealed it. Started to SV it yesterday around 3pm and topped off the water last nighr before bed (around 11). Thought that would last the night but this morning, the water had evaporated enough that the Anova Nano shut off. And the water temp was 73F (down from 150F).

NOW.. I know I know... when in doubt and all that. BUT... this is cured meat. One of the advantages of curing is inhibiting bacteria. It's also, obviously, cooked (it was smoked to 160F and in the SV bath at 150F for about 8-12 hours at the very least). So, does anyone know the actual food safety guidelines for something like this?

I don't need the 'when in doubt' stuff - I know all that and will likely toss this regardless but I'm curious about the science of how curing interacts with food safety recommendations.

[Jerod Broussard]

The 160 and the 150 did a number. With that said, 70 to 125 is a bad area to have meat for more than 2 hours that was simply pasteurized. Cooking kills those Enterobacteriacae dudes (for the most part, other families can join in), curing keeps Botulism from proliferating in an anaerobic environment.

At this point it's being free of toxins. Toxins are typically heat stable, in other words, 250-F for 90+ minutes is what it takes to denature some of them.

Likely fine, I just hate the potential alternatives.....


***You have a lid on the container???

[WillTravelForFood]

rickgregory - we also have a neoprene insulated wrap that goes around the sousvide tub.

Is it necessary? Probably not. Does it actually do anything? Maybe, maybe not.

maybe it helps during long cooks a smidge. /shrug/

[Jerod Broussard]

rickgregory WillTravelForFood I'm a firm believer in covering or laying a silicone mat on the water to at least help with temp control by reducing evaporative cooling, which gives the sous vide machine a little help

[rickgregory]

Jerod Broussard - yeah, that this happened was totally on me. I need to get a lid for this small Cambro and cut a hole in it. That would give me a covered container for small cooks and for large ones (where I use the Anova 12 quart container)

[ItsAllGoneToTheDogs]

When I worked at a place that sold reubens, if the pastrami was at room temp more than 2 hours we had to chuck it. Not sure if that was right or not, but we always guessed how much we would need for lunch or dinner service, pre-slice it, and then before the 2 hour mark we had to throw it in the fridge to be turned into hash.

[STEbbq]

Hmm. If the meat is still vacuum sealed, doesn’t that add another layer of safety? There is a difference between meat left on a serving counter for 2 hours versus same meat sealed no?

[Jerod Broussard]

Facultative aenerobes can survive easily, albeit a marked decrease in ATP production. Clostridium perfringens loves low oxygen environments.

[FireMan]

I once saw a video where they were forced to chuck prosciutto cuz it wasn’t cold enough, some where in NY. It was said, that In Italy that’s how it was stored. Didn’t matter rules was rules. I am not an expert, but I’m leanin to yer instinct on the curin end of things & the timing.

[rickgregory]

When I worked at a place that sold reubens, if the pastrami was at room temp more than 2 hours we had to chuck it. Not sure if that was right or not, but we always guessed how much we would need for lunch or dinner service, pre-slice it, and then before the 2 hour mark we had to throw it in the fridge to be turned into hash.

Yeah, but that's likely due to health dept rules and being cautious about serving the public, etc.

If this were a regular hunk of meat it would get tossed and I'd have no questions. But curing has historically been a way to preserve meat *because* there was no refrigeration. So, theoretically, it should be less susceptible to spoilage etc. Then there's the fact that I pasteurized it (twice!! ).

Caution says to toss it, but I'm less concerned about the loss of the meat and more just curious about the interplay of curing vs risk in cases like this.

[ItsAllGoneToTheDogs]

yeah I agree, I'd lean towards risking it for the reasons you mentioned... but in the back of my mind I just remember getting yelled at if we wasted pastrami

[Histrix]

"... just curious about the interplay of curing vs risk in cases like this."

Well, there's only one way to find out.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to eat that. I think back to all my elementary school years where my lunchbox would have a ham or bologna sandwich that would sit at room temperature for many hours before eating it. Biltong is usually made by hanging it to air dry for a week or so at ambient temp. Many hams hang far longer than that.

Now if we don't hear from you in a few days then we'll know that...

[jfmorris]

Yep - many a bologna sandwich on white bread in my lunch box as a kid. Probably had mayo on it too.

[Donw]

Very interesting question. The University of Wisconsin Meat Science lab did a study on cured pork chops. The meat had not been fully cooked before hand. The samples were then inoculated with Salmonella and E. coli. Their summary was:
Validated Critical Limits based on study results:

Cured products in the heat treated but not fully cooked, not shelf-stable product category should not be
• between 41 and 50°F (5 and 10 °C) for more than 6 hours, or
• between 41 and 70°F (5°C and 21°C) for more than 5 hours.

Another study they conducted with inoculated pork, beef and poultry cubes not cured suggested only a 2 hour holding period at 70F.

Your non inoculated product was cured, cooked and then sous vide for 8-12 hours, but did suffer from higher holding temperatures. So, a gamble but not long odds on safe in your case. I really wish we could culture some surface samples to see.

https://meathaccp.wisc.edu/validation/assets/CL%20Short%20term%20cured%20meat.pdf

[Huskee]

"When in doubt thr...[runs away]...

[rickgregory]

(chases with baseball bat)

[grantgallagher]

I eat pizza i leave on the counter overnight all the time…just saying

[rickgregory]

Me too. Me too...

[Histrix]

Me three!

[Huskee]

Me 4! I am not very picky about cooked food being left out a bit too long.