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Thoughts on a simple pasteurization technique?

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  • Hugh
    Club Member
    • Jun 2017
    • 357
    • My setup:
      Gas Grill - Weber Genesis II 310
      GrillGrates (2 flipped over for searing)
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      iGrill2 with 4 probes

    Thoughts on a simple pasteurization technique?

    Read an article on the Thermoworks website that gave a simple way to pasteurize a pink juicy burger.

    They suggest moving a grilled/seared/finished burger that has an internal temp of 140 degrees to a preheated oven which in my case has a minimum temperature of 170 and holding it there covered in tin foil for 12 minutes. I did this yesterday and I didn't see any change in burger internal temp after 12 minutes.

    Seems to accomplish the same as cooking Sous Vide at 140 (temp times time = safety). Not sure which is more juicy yet.

    Makes me curious that its too good to be true since Meathead doesn't mention it in his article. I did this yesterday and it really fits my workflow well when feeding a group. Also nice to do a more traditional cook on the Kettle now and then.

    Anyone got any concerns about safety?

    Here is the article https://blog.thermoworks.com/beef/mo...rs-safe-eat-2/>
  • MBMorgan
    Club Member
    • Sep 2015
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    #2
    Sous vide at 131F for an hour or three, remove from bag, season, and sear over (or under) warp 10 heat (I most often use a Searzall torch these days) for perfect edge-to-edge medium rare to medium.

    Comment


    • Polarbear777
      Polarbear777 commented
      Editing a comment
      That’s what I like to do when I’m not making smash burgers. I go three full hours to full pasteurization level.
  • Bkhuna
    Club Member
    • Apr 2019
    • 365
    • Merritt Island Florida

    #3
    Seems good to me. Especially if you grind your own meat.

    Comment


    • MBMorgan
      MBMorgan commented
      Editing a comment
      +1 Totally agree that grinding your own is a good, safe practice. Even though my brain says that sous vide pasteurization should be perfectly fine ... I just can't bring myself to risk my gut on store-ground beef.

    • RonB
      RonB commented
      Editing a comment
      If you grind your own meat, I suggest dipping the meat in boiling water for ~ 30 seconds to kill any surface contamination. The grind...
  • Donw
    Club Member
    • Jul 2017
    • 2317

    #4
    I think this may have been inspired by Douglas Baldwin’s work concerning sous vide pasteurization . He is a mathematician at the University of Colorado but he has a site with all his cooking data here: http://douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

    beside the mathematics on the website, in the appendix he has the government tables for holding at temperature.
    Last edited by Donw; April 26th, 2019, 11:11 AM.

    Comment

    • Bkhuna
      Club Member
      • Apr 2019
      • 365
      • Merritt Island Florida

      #5
      It's not just safety. I've had fun making grinds with a mixture of cuts a la Serious Eats
      https://aht.seriouseats.com/2009/10/...s-of-beef.html

      Comment


      • Hugh
        Hugh commented
        Editing a comment
        Had to come back and read this article by Kenji. Very good reading, thx.
    • Polarbear777
      Club Member
      • Sep 2016
      • 1449

      #6
      Is that enough time? Seems like it should be 20-25 minutes at 140.

      I always SV mine for far longer and finish unles making straight smash burgers.

      Comment

      • CaptainMike
        Club Member
        • Nov 2015
        • 2230
        • The Great State of Jefferson
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        #7
        I grind my own and do 'em 1 of 3 ways, smashed and cooked to 160, straight reverse sear to 160, or SV 131/1-3 hrs then seared. Never gotten sick from under-cooked hamburger, that I know of, but why take the chance.

        Comment

        • Polarbear777
          Club Member
          • Sep 2016
          • 1449

          #8
          Sous vide dash app says 22 minutes need held at 140 to achieve log 6 reduction for listeria (19 minutes for salmonella at log 6.5 and 9.5 minutes for E. coli if log 5).

          Click image for larger version  Name:	61FAF19D-030B-45C4-9F32-D9A5F446911E.jpeg Views:	1 Size:	132.1 KB ID:	670426

          Comment


          • Polarbear777
            Polarbear777 commented
            Editing a comment
            Eh, 165 is under a minute, so essentially no hold time. But you should really look to Baldwin’s tables and USDA as authoritative vs a random iPhone app.

          • Hugh
            Hugh commented
            Editing a comment
            Sorry, I meant oven temp at 165. I'm wondering what I would have to cook the meat internal temp to so that a 10 minute hold would complete the pasteurization. For example, maybe cooked to 145 internal, the hold might only be 10 minutes? I'll go have a look at Baldwin's material. Good learning excercise.

          • Polarbear777
            Polarbear777 commented
            Editing a comment
            146 held for 10 would work according to the sous vide dash app, however ovens fluctuate 20 degrees and if there’s evaporation it might not stay above 146. I’d keep a probe in it.
        • Jerod Broussard
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          #9
          Thankfully I don't care for the texture of 130-140-F burgers. 165-180-F is my cup of tea E. coli free.

          Comment


          • Hugh
            Hugh commented
            Editing a comment
            Jerod Broussard - is it childish of me that I take pleasure in the fact that there is a moderator on here that likes burgers even more cooked than me??

            On a more serious note, your my safety guide. How do you feel about the following safety strategy for grinding my own?

            At the front - boil the exterior of roast and fat.

            Keep things clean and cool.

            Only grind what cooking today.

            Grill to 140 and hold for 12.1 minutes in a preheated oven at greater than 140 at all times.

          • Jerod Broussard
            Jerod Broussard commented
            Editing a comment
            Hugh Boiling the meat is more than fine, as long as it hasn't been needle injected for whatever reason. I also boil my grinder parts as well, after I give them a normal cleaning. Just an FYI- most if not all the burgers that caused sickness in the Jack in the Box outbreak might have been cooked to 140° for just a couple seconds. Had they taken those burgers to at least 155 degrees they say there's a very good chance no one would have gotten sick. Lethality is that lethal.

          • Hugh
            Hugh commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm hoping that with my new found control in the fat content from grinding, I can cook to higher temps and still get a little bit of juice in the burger. I would actually prefer a burger cooked north of 155. I wonder how much fat content I will need to achieve this goal?
        • JimLinebarger
          Club Member
          • Jun 2017
          • 674
          • Spokane Valley, Wa.
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            About me
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          #10
          Meathead has an article "Hamburger Secrets: How The Zen Master Prepares A Real Happy Meal Hamburger" where he talks about 4 methods to combat e-coli and have medium rare burgers. I used the boiling method.

          Comment


          • Hugh
            Hugh commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for the link JimLinebarger. Meathead references the same 12.1 minutes to pasteurize at 140 degrees as the article I mentioned. I suspect Meatheads was the original! The only twist is Meathead considers cranking back and holding the kettle temp where as my article suggests popping them into the kitchen oven and being held at over 140 degrees. I just thought the kitchen oven technique made this a viable option since it is so simple. I'm going to study the temp fluctuations in the oven.

          • Polarbear777
            Polarbear777 commented
            Editing a comment
            See my post above. Looks like 12 minutes will definitely get E Coli but you need more time for listeria and salmonella if you want to be really safe.
        • CaptainMike
          Club Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 2230
          • The Great State of Jefferson
          • Weber Summit Charcoal Grill w/SnS and DnG (Spartacus)
            Old school big'ol Traeger w/Pro controller (Big Tex)
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          #11
          Came across this this morning, not a definitive article on the issue but it does illustrate the importance of the food supply chain and proper technique: https://www.foxnews.com/health/e-col...ef-sickens-177

          Comment


          • Jerod Broussard
            Jerod Broussard commented
            Editing a comment
            If everyone handled it properly and cooked it properly, no one would get sick. The companies have tons of control measures, multiple hurdles galore, but too many people handle raw meat like it is sterile. The stuff I kill and clean myself I treat like kryptonite.

          • CaptainMike
            CaptainMike commented
            Editing a comment
            I couldn't agree more Jerod Broussard. The first thing that popped in my head was safe food handling and cooking would prevent E.coli and many other nasties.
        • Hugh
          Club Member
          • Jun 2017
          • 357
          • My setup:
            Gas Grill - Weber Genesis II 310
            GrillGrates (2 flipped over for searing)
            Anova Sous Vide
            22" Kettle with SnS and Drip/Griddle
            Thermapen Mk4
            iGrill2 with 4 probes

          #12
          Turns out I have limited meat choices for grinding my own burger. My preference was for chuck with some beef fat on the side so I could find my own ratio. My butcher has neither chuck OR beef fat on hand. This also ruled out my second choice which was brisket flat with beef fat. She suggested a blend of brisket point and brisket flat. Made sense to me. Expecially since brisket is cheaper there than chuck. She eyeballed what looked like between a 60/40 and a 70/30 final blend based on a larger cut of point and a smaller cut of flat.

          I haven't seen mixing point and flat mentioned in what browsing I have done. Any red flags going off for you folks with this blend? And, how high of a fat ratio can you go to before it is un-appetizing?

          I'll take some pics before and after the cook in the next few days. If I don't get a juicy burger, I'm going to quit the club and become a vegetarian. Maybe A&W's Beyond Beef is a better option for me

          Comment


          • Jerod Broussard
            Jerod Broussard commented
            Editing a comment
            I blended trimmings from two briskets. I just got what amount of fat (white stuff) looked good. Eventually 3 pounds was mixed with 3.5 pounds of bacon ends. Yummy Meatloaf!

          • Polarbear777
            Polarbear777 commented
            Editing a comment
            Heck at Costco the brisket is cheaper per pound than chuck so grind away. Plus a whole brisket has plenty of fat available for the level you want.

          • CaptainMike
            CaptainMike commented
            Editing a comment
            I wouldn't go below 70/30 on the ratio.

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