Too Many "Mentors"...

[Willy]

OK, so I'm getting more sourness! The loaf I made today (and reported on in Citric Acid, Part 2) is a goodly amount tangier than what I have been turning out for the last couple of months. Best I can tell, the changing factor was bringing my starter out of the fridge and leaving it at room temp with daily feedings. So, Wink's claim that cooler makes more acetic acid is suspect IN MY OWN CASE. Your mileage may vary. My mileage certainly seems to vary quite a bit from others, including the pros, but I am quite happy with where I am at today. My loaves have generally pleased me with the exception being the lack of sourness. I hope I can keep Vinnie sour, indeed, a bit more sour than today's loaf.

[Willy]

MBMorgan My experience is exactly contrary to that--three months in the fridge (maybe only 2 months) and pretty much ALL of the tang, lactic or acetic, vanished. Three days out of the fridge (at room temp, about 70°F) and the tang came back. I am shocked, seriously.

[MBMorgan]

Sourdough can certainly be weird at times. If it helps, here's a discussion on the subject: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/lea...urdough-bread/

[Breadhead]

Oh Breadhead where art thou?

I've been MIA... Me, my son and his 2 buddies have been floating down a river in a drift boat the last few days fishing for Steelhead.😎

A brief explanation of getting a sour sourdough starter... the starter dictates the flavor of your bread.

Any starter stored at room temperature... allows both the lactic acid and the acidic acid to thrive. That produces a mild tasting loaf of bread with barely a hint of the sour tang.

Cold temperature... causes the lactic acid to go dormant or slows its growth enough for the acidic acid to dominate the culture. Once your starter has a high acidic acid content your bread will get more tang.

That condition can be manipulated by you, by understanding the conditions required to make the acidic acid the dominant player in the culture.

When I get home from my fishing trip I will go into more detail.

We all decided we would grow a beard for our fishing trip...😎

[Steve B]

I love you man, but you suck. I'm so jealous. I can only dream about adventures like that. I was able to about 30 years ago and hope possibly I can after I retire in 9 or 10 years from now if I'm able. I wish you and your family a happy and healthy new year. BTW great pics.

[Brookie]

Beautiful steelhead. Hope everyone got to enjoy a tug or three. Brookie

[Willy]

I've been Googling sourdough starters and may have stumbled onto something here. Virtually ALL articles talk about "cooler" and "warmer" relative to acid production, but none of them ever say that cool=the fridge. When specific temperatures are mentioned, they talk about temps in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Other than using the fridge for long term storage, none even discuss the use of a fridge. A couple places claim that refrigeration destroys a starter, which isn't true in my experience. It does seem to negatively impact bacterial health (not yeast), but only temporarily. My tentative conclusion, supported by my own experience, is that cool=65-70°F. So, when using a starter that has been stored a long time in the fridge, bring it out a few days before baking and refresh it daily--assuming that you want a nice sour tang. I'm running with this thought until experience proves other wise.

As always, YMMV.

[Potkettleblack]

Keeping in the low to mid sixties might be tough. San Francisco maintains that temp many months out of the year.

[Willy]

Potkettleblack Earlier this fall, I stumbled on a good way to keep roughly 60°F--place a 2 quart block of ice (in a milk jug, say) in a medium sized cooler, starter as far from the block as space allows. Swap the ice for a new block every day. I achieved a fairly consistent 60-ish temp with minimal effort. A smaller or larger cooler would have colder or warmer conditions, respectively. For right now, our house is around 70°F, which has been OK for my starter since being taken from the fridge. Time will tell.

I think another real key to increasing acidity is to use the starter well after its prime (and in a large amount), like just before its next feeding. My starter is definitely tangier then than when at its peak. The loaf I baked yesterday, used starter that passed the float test at 1 PM Friday (it was fed at 11:30 AM Friday), failed the float test at 7 PM Friday, and got mixed into a dough (400 grams in a 1.2 kg boule) at 9:30 AM Saturday. I did room temp rises and the loaf was out of the oven by 2 PM Saturday. Too fast, really!

Edit add-on: I spent a couple of hours today thumbing through Forkish's Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast and, boom, right there on page 127, he writes, "warmer temperatures, meaning 78°F to 90°F, favor lactic acid production. Cooler temperatures, meaning 55°F to 65°F, favor acetic acid production"! Hallelujah! (LOL) This is indeed consistent with my experience, though I have not kept a starter at higher temps like he says favor lactic acid production.

[tbob4]

I don't bake bread and have NO experience with it so forgive me if this is a stupid thought. Would a cheap wine cooler dedicated to your ideal temp and bread work?

[Willy]

tbob4 Sure it'd work. I feel silly for not thinking of that myself. I do use a small part of our wine cooler to store garlic and my wife keeps her baking chocolate there. Keeping the garlic in the high 50s°F improves storage time a lot (so does keeping it in the fridge). I grow garlic, harvest in May and plant in November. If I store it at room temp, it will sprout well before November. Interestingly, if garlic is stored cold, it will sprout very soon after being brought to room temp.

[Potkettleblack]

Having an adequate level of sourness in my loaves made with King Arthur, I don't have your problems. He lives in my project fridge (starter, dry aging, curing, brining) and gets fed once or twice a week. He comes to the counter and gets built up when fed. I keep my house in the 67-69* range this time of the year, so that might work as well.

My solution for a less sour will will involve a water bath with my immersion circulator to keep it warm.

[Willy]

Interesting. Is your bread very or slightly sour? Lactic or acetic tasting? How long on the counter before baking?

[Potkettleblack]

I don't really want it to taste like vinegar. It is pleasantly sour, a nice tang, that cuts through the pleasant lactic notes. Balance.

[Willy]

I spent a couple of hours today thumbing through Forkish's Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast and, boom, right there on page 127, he writes, "warmer temperatures, meaning 78°F to 90°F, favor lactic acid production. Cooler temperatures, meaning 55°F to 65°F, favor acetic acid production"! Hallelujah! (LOL) This is indeed consistent with my experience, though I have not kept a starter at higher temps like he says favors lactic acid production.

[Willy]

tbob4. THANKS again for the wine cooler idea. I feel quite stupid for not thinking of it myself. Anyway, I picked up a thinner plastic container at the grocery store today and my new starter, Vino, is safe and sound in the upper 50s°F in the wine cooler.

[tbob4]

I'm glad to help! I have a beer fridge that has different temp options to double as a wine cooler. Otherwise, it would never have occurred to me. Let me know if it works and thanks again for consistently posting fun stuff.

[Breadhead]

After doing sourdough for a while, making a couple of dozen loaves, and reading a few books, I'm getting somewhat of a feel for the general process, the behavior of the starter, and the proper feel of the dough. One disturbing thing is that the various experts I'm relying on disagree with one another. Perhaps the best example of a stark disagreement is that Debra Wink states that a cooler, drier starter will promote the acetic acid bacteria, while Peter Reinhart states the exact opposite and says such an environment will favor lactic acid production. Forkish recommends leaving the starter uncovered for a while in the beginning (that makes sense to me), others insist on always covering. There are many other examples of inconsistencies and rules that I have found to be inapplicable at least in my own experience.

At any rate, NONE of the things I've tried to do has helped my starter get more acetic-y. My first loaves were almost (not quite) too sour and over time the acetic tang has just disappeared. So, I am going to make a new starter (while still retaining my original one). Turning to Chef Jacob's starter technique (which I used the first time as well), the fact that he starts with a 500 gram batch disturbs me. Why not start with a 50 gram batch and not dump any of it for a few days? In other words, go to 100 grams total for feeding 2, 200 grams total for feeding 3, etc. Are any of youse guys and gals familiar with any logic that says one must start large?

Waste not, want not.

Listen to this podcast for your answer... the hard science is there. Understand the science and use that to develop your technique. Don't worry about what you read. Hard science doesn't lie. Create an environment for acidic acid to thrive in your starter and you will get tangy sourdough bread! It doesn't matter what any famous baker says... do YOUR thing.👍
http://stellaculinary.net/audio/stel...st/scs-022.mp3

To me it's pretty clear... in a warm atmosphere both lactic acid & acidic acid thrive, giving you a mild loaf of bread. A cold atmosphere reduces the lactic acid activity and allows the acidic acid to thrive. The type of flour you use does affect the acidity too.

If you want to learn... keep a stater on your counter top and one in your fridge. They will create different results.🤔

[Willy]

@Breadhead: I am, and have been, doing "hard science" and I certainly want to learn—that’s why I’m asking questions here and reporting on my own failures and successes. I currently have THREE starters underway: my original Vinnie (now at room temp after months in the fridge), Vino (a new starter who is living in my wine cooler, courtesy of tbob4 's suggestion)), and Vinnie Jr (a room temp 80% hydration starter). I have listened to, and watched, and understood, all of the SC podcasts and videos. I am reading other books (Forkish, Reinhart, and Buehler) and online articles. I am most hopeful that Vino will be a success since keeping a starter at temps around 57°F-58°F means I may not need to feed him daily, thus saving flour.

I’m actually extremely happy with my results (for which I owe many thanks to you and Chef Jacob!), excepting the missing tang. I certainly can improve my techniques, especially as regards scoring and identifying the perfect proofing level, but, even if I don’t improve anymore at all, I am still baking a much better loaf than I can buy anywhere local, which isn't to say that I would be winning any bread baking contests.

It is "hard science" IN MY CASE (YMMV) that keeping Vinnie in the fridge results in no tang. Been there, done that. I am hopeful that Vino or Vinnie Jr. will step up to the plate—LOL. Also, it isn’t clear to me why you say that a temp at which both lactic and acetic acids are produced would result in a mild loaf? In my case, it gave me a much tangier loaf. I’m pretty sure the two acids themselves don’t destroy each other, any more than the ethanol produced by the yeast hurts either acid. Maybe someone with a chemistry background could weigh in on this.

I will keep reading and experimenting to find out what works best for me. In the meantime, I would be tickled if you or one of the other more experienced bakers here would try a loaf with a starter that has passed its float test time and no longer floats. I know this works as I do it all the time, but I am anxious to know if more experienced bakers can detect any changes in the final loaf as a result of using a non-floating (but reliably vigorous) starter. I’m sure it will affect timing some, taking longer to rise.

Best wished and Happy New Year to you and everyone else. Also, congrats on a great fishing trip. I am VERY jealous!!!

[Potkettleblack]

This sounds like an easy experiment to set up. Start half a batch of dough with floaty starter. Start another half batch with post-floaty starter. bulk ferment the same, fold the same, proof the same, bake the same. Report results.

[Willy]

Potkettleblack Agreed. I've run this experiment several times (not side-by-side); however, and cannot see any difference. I'd just like to see a more experienced baker do it and perhaps observe little effects that I am not seeing. It's my suspicion that this is one of those "rules" that is irrelevant.