Too Many "Mentors"...

[Willy]

After doing sourdough for a while, making a couple of dozen loaves, and reading a few books, I'm getting somewhat of a feel for the general process, the behavior of the starter, and the proper feel of the dough. One disturbing thing is that the various experts I'm relying on disagree with one another. Perhaps the best example of a stark disagreement is that Debra Wink states that a cooler, drier starter will promote the acetic acid bacteria, while Peter Reinhart states the exact opposite and says such an environment will favor lactic acid production. Forkish recommends leaving the starter uncovered for a while in the beginning (that makes sense to me), others insist on always covering. There are many other examples of inconsistencies and rules that I have found to be inapplicable at least in my own experience.

At any rate, NONE of the things I've tried to do has helped my starter get more acetic-y. My first loaves were almost (not quite) too sour and over time the acetic tang has just disappeared. So, I am going to make a new starter (while still retaining my original one). Turning to Chef Jacob's starter technique (which I used the first time as well), the fact that he starts with a 500 gram batch disturbs me. Why not start with a 50 gram batch and not dump any of it for a few days? In other words, go to 100 grams total for feeding 2, 200 grams total for feeding 3, etc. Are any of youse guys and gals familiar with any logic that says one must start large?

Waste not, want not.

[Atalanta]

My take on too many "mentors" is to pick the one with whom my experiences closely align.

[Steve B]

Oh Breadhead where art thou?

[Potkettleblack]

The short of it is that all these folks know what works for them in their experience. The Modernist Cuisine folks have a Bread project coming out, that is likely based on the actual organic chemistry of bread and the rest of the science involved. thats probably the go to mentor. That said, it's going to be six hundred dollars and more information than I want or need. Field blend 2 is closer to the bread I dream of making for customers at the B&B I want to run after retiring from my job.

But, to your immediate concern, Forkish says that the acetic acid content is a function of temperature. Run that starter in the high 60's and you'll have acetic acid. Run it warmer, less acetic, more lactic.

Fwiw: I trust Forkish on pretty much everything except starter maintenance. He uses a metric ton of flour to keep it going and I'm opting for the King Arthur Flour method, which is less wasteful. When I want to make a bread, I build up King Arthur (my starter) to the amount I'll need, plus. That works well and uses points less flour. Maintains a cost discipline.

[Atalanta]

http://www.modernistbread.com/

[Willy]

"..what works for them."

Yep, that's my conclusion, too. My frustration is that "experts" can have diametrically opposing/mutually exclusive views.

[EdF]

Jeff Hamelman is pretty reliable too.

[SMOG MAN]

Willy I am about the same place in my sourdough bread baking as you and I have come to the same conclusions about the different people/bakers I have read, I have decided to just keep trying to make my own way. I did just read and article on the Brod and Taylor web site (when reading about their collapsible bread proofer) that I found fascinating.

[SMOG MAN]

I just searched "How to make your sourdogh bread more sour" and it comes up about the third spot.

[Willy]

SMOG MAN Thanks for the tip! Comically (or, rather, sadly) this link states that the LAB grow more quickly than the yeast, which is contrary to everything else I've read. Also, Wink is the one who earlier claimed that cooler temps would produce a more sour (acetic) starter.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

Whatever is a boy to do!?

[RonB]

Just a thought, but have you been stirring the hooch into the starter instead of discarding it? That's supposed to help make it more sour.

[Willy]

I'm actually not getting much hooch--very, very little. Lots of bubbles, though. I generally don't throw starter away; I start small and build up.

[CaptainMike]

Willy , show me 3 lawyers (or Contractors) and I'll show you at least 4 opinions! Figure out what result YOU want, then make YOUR method fit that. It's been said that the 2nd oldest profession is either bread making or beer making, either way the recipes can be extremely simple to ludicrously complex.

[Willy]

That's my approach! I do; however, like whining and getting other folk's input.

[Willy]

From a January 2016 article at "The Fresh Loaf" (the last large post contains some "interesting claims"):

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44593/how-make-bread-taste-more-sourdoughy

What we need here is the bread equivalent of a Meathead.

[lschweig]

Breadhead will find this thread and calm the waters at some point. Incidentally he is called breadhead for a reason as is meathead.

[FireMan]

Doc Breadhead to us all! The discoverer of MCS & bread officianado.

[Michael Brinton]

Scale chef Jacobs technique to 50 grams, you don't have to use the full amount. The starter will pick up more acid once you have it in the fridge for some time maybe a month or more. Breadhead will have a more precise gameplan. The answer is probably deep in the sourdough thread :-)

[Potkettleblack]

Agree with the recommendation to keep it cooler. I think my next bread is going to be Forkish's Warm Spot Levain bread, by using my SV device to keep the levain warm and make it sweeter. My levain container will sit in my SVS Demi, which will hold at 86.

[Willy]

Alas, my experience is just the opposite. Three months in the fridge and there ain't no tang at all. From super sour to quite bland in four or five months. More below.

[scottranda]

Give us your recipe/formula for a basic bread you make. Be sure to include how much starter you use, and how long it has been in the fridge. That might help diagnose why it's not sour enough.

[Willy]

It's not the loaf per se; it's the starter that is (badly) losing tang. I use Chef Jacob's method: 100% hydration with the flour being 50/50 WW/BF. I'll post more details later, busy now.

[MBMorgan]

FWIW, I tend to use Ken Forkish's method to make bread because I personally like fairly high hydration dough (normally 75%) and his technique lends itself well to handling such dough. I don't follow his procedure for starting and maintaining a levain, though. It seems awfully fussy and ultimately it results in an 80% hydration starter. Instead, I follow Chef Jacob's simpler instructions for starting and maintaining a 100% hydration poolish using a 50/50 mix of WW and BF. I do not maintain anywhere near the huge amount of starter that either Forkish or Chef Jacob do ... on the order of 1 Kg. I assume that they maintain such a large starter because they both run a commercial operation in which they bake multiple times per week. In my world, I only bake once a week (or less sometimes) and don't need nearly as much mature starter on hand. Personally, I maintain only 200 g of starter. I could maintain less (like the 50g you mention) but find that 200g fits my style of baking better and it's not too terribly wasteful.

If I need more tang, I simply put my 100% hydration poolish in the refrigerator for anywhere from a couple of days to a week in order to give a temporary "advantage" to the acetic acid producing bacteria.

I've read that that if you routinely want a more sour taste, there are a few things that can help:

• Forget the poolish and use a lower hydration starter because the acetic acid producing bacteria prefer a drier environment.
• Use only whole grain flours
• Keep the hooch
• Go for a longer, slower rise by using less starter in the dough and/or letting it rise for a longer time in a cooler place. Preferment your dough to facilitate that long, slow rise.

[MBMorgan]

Fridge temps inhibit lactic acid production. Acetic acid production continues at those temps ... and will therefore enhance tanginess after a few days (or longer).

[MBMorgan]

Potkettleblack - FWIW, I just weighed 1/4 cup each of white flour (KAF BF) and water. The flour weighs in at 40 g and the water at 60 g. Your starter appears to be an extremely high 150% hydration.

[Potkettleblack]

If it gets a bit too soupy looking, I do a bit more flour. I should probably go back to doing it by weight but I'm enjoying the convenience.