Sourdough Starter Problems

[J-Melt]

I’m taking my first stab at a sourdough starter. I had a dry starter that my wife bought a year and a half ago that I randomly decided to get going and the instructions were not great. Did not have me discard anything until day 3. The feeding instructions were also 1 cup flour to 3/4 cup water and didn’t say anything about discarding.

I have done some research after realizing that it is not rising like it should and am now feeding it at about 24 hour increments using 1/2 cup starter, 1/2 cup warm water, 1 cup flour. It is semi cold in my house, we keep it at 68 daytime and let it get down to 63 overnight. I’m seeing hooch on it at about 18 hours with a few bubbles.

I started using bleached all purpose flour with bottled water. I have switched to using unbleached bread flour and filtered city water.

What red flags do you see and do y’all recommend I keep trying to feed and change my approach, or just start again from scratch.?

[Draznnl]

Paging Richard Chrz

[Smoker_Boy]

I'll be following this thread.
I make excellent bread but I am wanting to try my hand at the sourdough.

[Richard Chrz]

Here is a thread to look through,

https://pitmaster.amazingribs.com/forum/the-pit-mastery-program/breads/1170896-my-bread-or-pizza

[Richard Chrz]

So, this is a real basic, but feel free to ask more. I definitely have opinions on a starter, your flour is ok, but, if you can score yourself some bread flour, grab it.

I personally believe it takes about a month to build your starter. Discard every day, and lower your amounts.
If you have a grams scale (if you really want to learn sourdough, you will eventually want one.

I would feed 75 grams of the discard, 75 grams of warm water, stir until nice and frothy, add 75 grams of flour and stir again, do this daily for about 2 weeks, then you can start feeding every other or every third day by utilizing your refrigerator, to slow down the process, and the waste.

enjoy the process, you can learn a ton just by watching your starter. Think of each one as an over hydrated batch of dough. You can see how water temps, speed or slow it down, etc….

[J-Melt]

Okay, so you would recommend just keeping what I have and lowering my grams per feeding? I am currently using bread flour, so I’ll keep doing that!

I am a major coffee snob, so I have a scale for pour overs!

[Richard Chrz]

Yeah, keep doing it. But the high amounts are such a waste of flour. You will see activity sooner than month, but I personally believe that is not a healthy culture. Your flour is where the yeast culture comes from, once it gets moving, it will be un stoppable.

[J-Melt]

Makes sense to me. I’ll keep going with smaller amounts. I finally used some of my discard for pizza dough today. It’s in the oven now, so we shall see how it turns out. It will be good not to be wasting so much flour so quick.

[J-Melt]

Richard Chrz Do you warm your water before putting it in the starter? Or stick with room temperature even during winter?

[J-Melt]

That could be part of my problem then. I’ve been using about 100 degree water

[Richard Chrz]

100 is fine, it is not going to kill the culture, as once it get’s blended with flour, it cools down. At some point you will learn to utilize ice water, or 100 degree water, as and when needed,

But, I’d stick with lower for now.

[Richard Chrz]

Another tip I would give you is to taste your stater, before you feed it, after you feed it, just start to see what it tastes like, then think of ways to change that (mixing ratios), as that flavor will come over into the bread.

Don’t let the science bury you, sourdough bread is easier than sometimes explained. But the science does matter (but they are time, temp, ratios, and your flour.). The biggest thing again is to take advantage of this time to learn how fast, what variables made changes.

[MBMorgan]

J-Melt - Starting back in 2015, a number of folks here in the Pit became seriously interested (and quite active) in the how-to's, the do's, and the don'ts of making sourdough bread. There's still a rather long (69 pages) stickied thread that documents much of the resulting conversation and there is a TON of useful information there that seems to be pretty much overlooked these days. If you're interested, it's a pretty good read ... and you can find it HERE.

[jfmorris]

I second Richard Chrz on using a scale that reads in grams. I have a starter from Richard in fact, which I feed weekly (it lives in the fridge), and am in fact baking bread from as we speak.

[J-Melt]

One thing I’m worried may be messing with my starter is chlorinated water. My tap is Chicago city water that uses chlorine. I use a brita elite filter to get rid of the lead in my tap and it also supposedly gets rid of chlorine too. Do y’all think this could be a problem?

[jfmorris]

No. I use tap water when making bread with yeast or sourdough starter. Sometimes it’s filtered but not always.

[Smoker_Boy]

J-Melt You could just leave your water sit overnight in an open pitcher which should allow the chlorine to evaporate.

[J-Melt]

Thank you MBMorgan ! I have already switched to doing it by weight instead of by volume. I will read through the recipe you posted later today and will see how a 2:2:1 ratio works.

[MBMorgan]

Finally, feel free to file this info however you wish. Here's my starter notes (dumped hastily out of Paprika):


INGREDIENTS

:////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////:
Sourdough Starter, 100% Hydration
Over the first 5 days, you'll need a TOTAL: 525 grams Water

425 grams (1 pound) whole wheat flour

100 grams white flour (All Purpose)

:////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////:

Startup (5 Days) [1:2:2] ([Starter:Water:Flour])

Note: Initially Make 250 g for Startup

>>> Day 1 (start):

125 grams water, 90°F (32°C)

125 grams whole wheat flour

>>> Days 2-5:

50 grams STARTER

----<plus>----

>>> On Days 2-4 (build):

100 grams water, 90°F (32°C)

100 grams whole wheat flour

>>> On Day 5 ONLY (add white flour):

100 grams water, 85°F (29°C)

100 grams white flour

:////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////:

From This Point:

>>> Use 1:4 (Whole Wheat:White (AP)) Flour Mixture

>>> Water Temp for Feeding: 85°F (29°C)

>>> Maintain constant [1:2:2] starter ratio

:////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////:

FEED (ROOM TEMP (Daily) or REFRIGERATED (Monthly; takes 2 Days)):

>>> Feed; keep warm for 24 hours, then optionally refrigerate:

[20 g STARTER:40 g water:40 g flour] is typical

(USE ANY AMOUNT/KEEP CONSTANT RATIO)

DESCRIPTION

MBM - loosely based on information from Ken Forkish, "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast (FWSY)" and Maurizio Leo, "The Perfect Loaf" (TPL)

Starter Ratio [starter:water:flour] and Composition (in grams) for Feeding:
For showing detailed amounts (grams) in a mixture of flours, flour may be divided into multiple values (e.g., whole wheat and white flour) ... shown as ww+white. So [20:100:100(20www+80AP)] is a [1:5:5] mixture consisting of [20 g starter:100 g water:20 g whole wheat flour + 80 g all-purpose (AP) white flour].

STICK WITH A STARTER RATIO OF [1:2:2] FOR A MORE VIGOROUS STARTER THEN, WHEN PREPARING A LEVAIN FOR BAKING, ANYWHERE FROM [1:2:2] TO [1:10:10] BECOMES FAIR GAME

DIRECTIONS

IMPORTANT - Before you begin: Weigh the empty dough tub (no lid) and record its tare weight where it won’t be rubbed off.
:================:

STARTUP - A 5-DAY PROCESS (FEED AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME EACH DAY):
Day 1 (Start): >>> See Ingredients List for Day 1 Amounts · Sanitize the dough tub (2 qt. recommended) and anything touching it or its contents.

· Into the tub, add the Day 1 ingredients; mix by hand just until incorporated.
· Leave the slurry-like mixture uncovered for 1 to 2 hours, then cover and let it rest in a warm place. 75°F to 90°F (24°C to 32°C) would be ideal, but a little warmer or cooler is OK, too.

Days 2 - 4 (Build): >>> See Ingredients List for Days 2-4

· Discard most of your initial mix. Leave the remainder in the tub. · Into the tub, add the Day's ingredients; mix by hand just until incorporated.
· Leave the mixture uncovered for 1 to 2 hours, then cover and let rest in a warm place.

· >>> On Day 2: By the end of the day, the starter should have about doubled in volume, with some small bubbles visible.
· >>> On Day 3: The starter should be 2 times the volume it was when you mixed it the previous day, with bubbles throughout and a leathery alcohol smell. Later in the day it should have a distinctly pungent, “sour porridge” odor.

Sourdough Starter (100% Hydration)

★★★★★

Baking

Source: MBM (2/4/2023) - loosely based on Ken Forkish, "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast (FWSY)" and Maurizio Leo, "The Perfect Loaf"(TPL)

:////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////:

RESTORE FROM REFRIGERATION (2 Days)

>>> Days 1 and 2 (feed; keep warm):

20-100 grams STARTER to make 100-500 grams, or more as needed

:////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////: TO REFRIGERATE (AT PEAK)

>>> 100 grams STARTER (keep; discard the rest)

After using to make a levain for baking,

<or>

After the last feeding, warm for 6-8 hours, then >>> coat with a film of water; refrigerate. :////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////:

· >>> On Day 4: The starter should again be back up to about 3 cups, with bubbles throughout.

Day 5 (Add White Flour): >>> See Ingredients List for Day 5 ONLY
· Discard most of the starter
· Into the tub, add Day 5 ingredients; mix by hand just until incorporated.

· Cover and let rest in a warm place. In about 6 to 8 hours, the starter should be ready for use in dough.
· By the end of day 5, the starter culture should be vigorous enough to use in any of the levain bread and pizza dough recipes in the book (FWSY). The best cue that a starter is mature is when, 7 to 8 hours after the morning mix, it has a medium-ripe pungency and, if you wet your hand and pull out a chunk of it, you should feel its gassiness and be able to sense its weblike internal structure. It will be very goopy, with somewhat viscous texture. In any case, on Day 5 you’ll switch from building your starter to a regular feeding schedule, using a blend of white and whole wheat flour, and slightly cooler water.

:================:
Feeding the Starter (Feed at approx. the same time each day):
· Levain bread recipes generally assume you have a mature ("ripe") starter culture. If you’re going to bake with your starter several days each week, you’ll want to have a daily routine for feeding it. You can do it each morning, ideally at about the same time, but it can vary by an hour or two without causing problems.
· The target temperature for the starter right after mixing is between 78°F and 80°F (26°C and 27°C). If you aren’t sure what temperature of water to use, measure the temperature of the starter after you’ve mixed it and adjust accordingly next time. Between feedings, cover the starter and let it rest at room temperature. You can pare down the amount of starter, fresh flour, and fresh water used with each feeding as long as you maintain the same ratios.

When it’s time to feed daily, for a starter stored at room temperature:

· Throw away all but a small amount of the starter
· Into the tub, add: >>> See Ingredients List for FEEDING (ROOM TEMP): Daily; mix by hand just until incorporated.
· Cover and keep in a warm place.

One note on hand mixing starter: These cultures are quite acidic. If you mix starter frequently and have sensitive skin, you might want to use vinyl disposable gloves.

After using your starter in a recipe, keep the remainder in its tub at room temperature. The next morning - when you regularly feed your starter - refresh the remainder as usual.
:================:
STORING AND RESTORING YOUR STARTER

If you will not be making dough with your starter culture every day or don’t feel like feeding it every day, you need to have a plan for storing your starter on those off days and restoring it as needed.

It’s best to store it in the refrigerator. After using it in a final dough mix, take 100 grams of the remaining starter, coat it with a film of water, and put it in an airtight container or non-perforated plastic bag, then refrigerate for up to 1 month.

When you’re ready to use it again, you’ll need to plan ahead in order to bring it back and use it at full strength.

:================:
FSWY procedure for breads in chapters 9, 10, and 11:

[STEP 1] TWO DAYS BEFORE YOU PLAN TO BAKE:
· >>> Remove the starter from the refrigerator and put a portion (about 20%) of it into your empty starter bucket. Discard the remainder.

· Let the starter warm up at room temperature for 30-60 minutes.
· Then add: >>> See Ingredients List for RESTORE, BAKE, REFRIGERATE Day 1 (feed); mix by hand just until incorporated.
· Cover and let rest in a warm spot overnight.

[STEP 2] THE MORNING OF THE DAY BEFORE YOU BAKE:

· Feed the starter again, using about 1/2 as much as used in [STEP 1]:
· >>> Discard all but about 1/2 as much as used in [STEP 1].
· >>> Add >>> See Ingredients List for RESTORE, BAKE, REFRIGERATE Day 2 (feed)
· Mix by hand until just incorporated. You have now completed the first step of each of the levain recipes.
· Cover the starter and let it rest in a warm spot until you mix your dough later that day.
· After overnight bulk fermentation or proof, depending on the recipe, you will be ready to bake the next day.

SAMPLE SCHEDULE:

If you’re starting a new starter and want to have it ready for baking bread on, say, a Sunday morning, then start with Day 1 of the section “Step-by-Step Guide to Starting Your Levain” the Tuesday before.

If you have a refrigerated starter, here’s a schedule to refresh and feed it for baking on Sunday morning:
1. On Friday morning, refresh your refrigerated starter following [STEP 1] of the procedure in the section “Storing and Refreshing Your Starter,” above.
2. On Saturday morning, toss all but a small amount of the starter and follow [STEP 2] of the procedure for refreshing.
3. On Saturday afternoon, mix the dough following the recipe of your choice.
4. For hybrid leavening recipes (FSWY chapter 9), on Saturday evening divide and shape the loaves and refrigerate overnight for slow proofing. For pure Levain recipes (FSWY chapters 10 and 11), bulk fermentation extends overnight, and the loaves are divided and shaped the next morning.
5. For hybrid leavening breads, bake on Sunday morning; for pure Levain breads, bake at around noon.

NOTES

SEASONAL VARIATIONS (From Ken Forkish, FSWY):

"I’ve found that although my kitchen temperatures are roughly the same year-round, it’s still colder in there in winter. As a result my levain culture isn’t as active in winter and my levain doughs develop a bit more slowly than in the summer. Your own experience will vary depending on the climate you live in. In winter, I compensate by putting more levain in the final dough than I do in summer - somewhere around 50 grams (3 tablespoons) more. I’ve put notes regarding this option in the pure levain dough recipes in this book because those are the doughs most affected.

Another wintertime adjustment if the levain is developing slowly is to increase the amount of levain retained in the morning feed by about 30 to 50 grams (2 to 3 tablespoons), keeping the fresh flour and water amounts the same. In summertime, if the bread is too sour, I sometimes reduce the amount of levain retained in the morning feeding. Commercial yeast is much more vigorous than the wild culture in a levain, so hybrid leavening doughs with added baker’s yeast will have less seasonal variation than pure levain doughs."

[J-Melt]

What do you think about using bread flour instead of white flour once I get to the combined stage MBMorgan?

[MBMorgan]

J-Melt - It won't hurt to use bread flour (BF). It's got a bit more protein than All-Purpose (AP) but the amount of starter that you'll use when actually baking is quite small ... so the BF will pretty much just fade into the background.

[J-Melt]

It’s official, I have declared my first starter to have flat lined. I have gotten no real rising in a week and a half and only a few bubbles.

I grabbed some wheat flour from Mariano’s today and will start again tonight with probably 100 grams whole wheat flour to 100 grams water for new starter. I am going to keep it in my oven with the light on to solve my cold house problems.

[jfmorris]

If that doesn’t work, you want to just buy a starter. I bought mine from Richard chrz. King Arthur flour sells one as well.

[Willy]

First, I have to believe that a 1.5 year old dried starter is dead, or very close to it. Second, I have never had a starter take more than 4-5 days to become very active. I rely on whatever bugs are in the air or the flour--no store bought starter needed. I second MB Morgan's recommendation for Forkish's "FWSY" or his newer book "Evolutions in Bread", both are good. They differ somewhat, but both deliver good results, as do books from Peter Reinhart and sites like "The Perfect Loaf", plus many others. I also second MB's recommendation of the AR thread. It may be a bit of slog, but it is worth it. Finally, don't overthink it cuz it'll drive you crazy trying to pick and choose between the "experts" (no slam against experts intended) like it did me. Most all starters, whoever's formula you are following, will be just fine. Start your starter, follow whatever "recipe" you choose, and bliss will happen. I guarantee (RIP Justin Wilson).

[jfmorris]

Not sure that is the case, but the big assumption is that the dry starter was good to start with. And was packed and stored properly.

I know yeast and other in that family can survive for amazingly long times under adverse conditions. I read where they had harvested and cultured yeast from ancient times, from pores in the vessels used for ancient beer. I've had dry bread or brewing yeast that was years old and worked. Where I had less luck was with liquid yeast cultures that got old.

[J-Melt]

I’m not sure exactly what happened with that starter. Could have been the bad directions that came with it and my lack of understanding about how to work with a starter that made it not work. Could have also been that I used bleached flour to begin with. Who knows. It’s all trial and error!

I do know that the website that sells them has a ton of reviews on this starter that are no good. Lots of people over the years said that it didn’t work and that the directions are bad.

[J-Melt]

It’s working! It had doubled in size when I got home from work about 20 hours after starting!

[Willy]

Good on ya!

[MBMorgan]

Excellent!

[J-Melt]

Day 3 feeding is in the books! It is doing is thing quite well. Only oddity is that it had tripled and fallen by the time I left for work only 8 hours after feeding.

That thing smells AWFUL! I see why they say the discard can’t be used in recipes until day 7…

[Richard Chrz]

Taste it every time, before you feed it and after. I still do that, you’ll learn various ways to change flavor profiles,