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Prime Brisket: Probe tender where?

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  • BBQ_Bill
    Club Member
    • Jun 2017
    • 409
    • Phoenix, Arizona

    #16
    I have purchased somewhere around 50 or so packers from Costco I am figuring.
    There are some unscrupulous butcher/processors that KNOW we BBQ folks like thick flats.
    It is common knowledge amongst pitmasters that a thick flat has a better chance of coming out moist at the end of a long smoke/cook.
    -
    Aaron Franklin gives advice on choosing a good packer in at least one youtube video, directing us in one I saw to look for a thick flat.
    I want to mention you should also beware of trickery.
    -
    Unless you really examine a packer well, it is easy to miss the tricks used to fool us, especially due to the cryovac bags ease in hiding these tricks being played on us.
    -
    Here is a Prime Costco example:


    Nice trick!
    This "tab" was folded over to make the thinner edge of this packer look great in the plastic bag.
    Once opened however, this trick cut and fold is revealed.

    Comment

  • BBQ_Bill
    Club Member
    • Jun 2017
    • 409
    • Phoenix, Arizona

    #17
    Howdy wcpreston
    I have noticed that sometimes photos that are posted by others show up (to me) on my smart phone and desktop PC as small ICONS.
    -
    The two that I posted above look okay (to me) on my smart phone as well as on my Desktop PC.
    -
    Can any OPS here help explain this? Bug?
    Spinaker Huskee Meathead ?

    Comment


    • BBQ_Bill
      BBQ_Bill commented
      Editing a comment
      Okay, thanks my friend for getting back with me.
      Am sure that it will be fixed.
      Just a matter of time.

    • wcpreston
      wcpreston commented
      Editing a comment
      Shoutout to raywjohnson from a fellow ITer. Google Mr. Backup. That's me!

    • raywjohnson
      raywjohnson commented
      Editing a comment
      Greetings wcpreston ! Found your site. Cool.
  • new2smoking
    Club Member
    • Aug 2018
    • 203
    • Seattle, WA

    #18
    The same happened to me with my post # 15 above. Red Man reported that he couldn't see the uploaded photos. I could see them just fine. Then, yesterday, instead of the photos, I saw small placeholder boxes where the photos had been. This morning I can see the photos. Red Man, are you able to see the photos now on post #15? BTW, I will post the results and my observations later today from yesterday's brisket cook. Daniel

    Comment


    • Red Man
      Red Man commented
      Editing a comment
      Nope, still can’t see them or the pics in the BBQ_Bill post.
  • new2smoking
    Club Member
    • Aug 2018
    • 203
    • Seattle, WA

    #19
    OK, this is a puzzle. I went down to our office at home, where I am typing this now. I cannot see my photos, nor those of BBQ_Bill on this laptop. Just on a whim, I opened my other laptop where I had seen the uploaded photos yesterday: These two screen shots are from my post (#15) in this thread, where Red Man first noted that he couldn't see them.
    To make it even more confusing, I can't see BBQ_Bill's images on either laptop!
    I've included laptop and browser info for the IT mavens.


    The one with no images is a MacBook Air, 13" Mid 2011, running macOS High Sierra Vs 10.13.6 (17G4015)
    Safari Version 12.0.2 (13606.3.4.1.4)
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2019-01-21 14.24.02.png Views:	1 Size:	233.2 KB ID:	626012



    The laptop which is showing the photos of the same post is a MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, early 2016) running macOS Mojave, Vs 10.14.2
    Safari version12.0.2 (14606.3.4)

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2019-01-21 14.21.59.png Views:	1 Size:	379.9 KB ID:	626011

    Comment

    • BBQ_Bill
      Club Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 409
      • Phoenix, Arizona

      #20
      wcpreston

      The following info is from my own personal experience with a goal of excellence and constancy in regards to smoked packer beef brisket.
      (Your mileage may vary...)
      Please note that I don't have as much experience nor knowledge as some of the others here, but this is what I have discovered after deciding late in October of 2016 that I was going to dedicate myself to many very serious brisket smoking experiments and copy the success of Aaron Franklin in regards to his brisket.
      I decided that it was okay to have failures along the way because that would bring about more testing and changes.
      For sure, I have kept very detailed notes of around 70 or so packer brisket smokes.
      These brisket cooks/smokes were mostly 3 packers smoked at one time per each KBQ C-60 smoker.
      I tried, and decided that 4 packers per KBQ is WAY too much trouble.
      -
      On another note...
      I've no clue as to how all things work in other smokers and have only smoked one, maybe two packers in my off-sets.
      -
      Am thinking that I have finally broke the "200-packer barrier" in my KBQs awhile back, but do not feel like going back thru notes to add them all up to try to be exact. It is not that important to me.
      The information that I would like to share with you wcpreston is however, from a lot of trialing, mistakes and learning the hard way.
      -
      Here is a Link to my post containing information as to how to know when your packer is ready to pull from the heat and rest.
      I believe that done is done and SHOULD be somewhat universal whether you use a kitchen oven, a Lang or an Egg.
      -
      The post that the link above will take you to, is much like a book, and was written to my fellow KBQ Club members, to help those with Bill Karau's KBQ C-60 smoker to get their brisket right.
      -
      You will need to scroll about half way down that very long post to where you see the following:

      4) When is it done?
      When should I pull it from the heat?
      According to Aaron Franklin as well as from my own experience, every brisket truly is different.
      They just are, and for me they absolutely get done at different times.
      I believe this to be due to different fat content, fat type built from grass or grain, marbling, size of the brisket, as well as other factors...
      As Aaron says, "A brisket is done when it's done. No two cows are exactly alike." and I completely agree.

      -
      In my opinion and experience, it is critical to rest that packer after you pull it from the heat to allow it to slowly decelerate and cool from 200°F or thereabouts down to about 140° internal in the "Sweet Spot" and re-absorb some of the moisture in the wrapping.
      (This "sweet spot" can be seen in my drawing in the post as mentioned above)
      Next, I hold that packer at 140° to 150°F in which I find that the majority of the moisture that came out and into the wrapping during the cook, will be nearly completely re-absorbed back into the meat and will re-distribute. (THIS is wonderful by the way)
      As a side note...
      I can hold butcher paper wrapped packers in my holding cabinets for no more than about 20 to 24 hours before the quality begins to definitely drop off.

      Even though it seems that SO MANY tell it like it is the gospel... the move from heat straight to the hold does not work well for me.
      Every single time that I have pulled a packer straight from my 225°F to 250°F oven or one of my smokers when it is done and probes tender, and have placed it directly into my insulated cooler, or into my heated holding cabinet, without that ALL IMPORTANT resting/cooling down period, where I am letting it decelerate and cool to 140-150°F... that brisket has continued to cook, overcooked, and became crumbly, and generally the flat dries out a bit.
      I refuse to do this "cooler" resting/holding thing anymore UNTIL that packer has cooled from the approximate 200°F to about 145°F.
      -
      Please listen to Aaron Franklin explain this exact same thing HERE in this video.
      (If you would like, simply go to 5:45 in this video where Aaron explains carryover)
      Remember, this man buys 45,000 pounds of brisket per month, so he probably knows what he is talking about.
      -
      I hope this helps.
      Smoke On!
      Last edited by BBQ_Bill; January 22, 2019, 02:23 PM.

      Comment


      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        This is a great post. I'm glad you clarified that you hold outside the cooler. That's an important point.

      • new2smoking
        new2smoking commented
        Editing a comment
        I agree, wcpreston. I have been wrapping in paper, and throwing immediately into the cambro. I suspect the meat is at at least 190, and it probably has been overcooking. While I've gone over BBQ-Bill's brisket tome many times, I had missed this one possibly critical point. I also reviewed Franklin's video which Bill had referenced. I am looking forward to my next brisket to see if this has been my problem.

      • BBQ_Bill
        BBQ_Bill commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes, rest when pulled from the heat in an area of reduced temperature such as on the stove top, while allowing the heat to slowly drop from the approximate 200°F. Mine seem to get to 145°F or so internally in about two hours. Then, while still wrapped, hold at 140°F to 155°F for as long as needed, up to around 12 hours is fine. Aaron Franklin holds all of his for about 9 to 12 hours before slicing and selling.
    • ColonialDawg
      Club Member
      • Oct 2017
      • 491
      • Coastal VA

      #21
      From my personal experience with prime Costco packers (and I cook my briskets hot and fast):
      I probe my flat until it is butter soft (my internal temps are consistently in the 205 range and my briskets are not overcooked, i.e. they slice without falling apart)
      I do foil my briskets when the bark is set (~160-180) but I foil tightly. My bark isn’t crusty but I don’t like dry crusty bark - I want to be able to slice it easily. When the cook is done I open the foil to vent and release all that heat. I also pour off and save all the juices before I wrap again to hold (if and when I do hold).

      Comment


      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        That's what most people do. The point gets there faster, but it doesn't keep climbing as fast.

      • ColonialDawg
        ColonialDawg commented
        Editing a comment
        Hot and fast to me is around 300 degrees +/-, just to clarify.

      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        that's moz def hot/fast!
    • BBQ_Bill
      Club Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 409
      • Phoenix, Arizona

      #22
      Probing like butter has been used by a very large number of people who cook/smoke brisket.
      You can find it all over the web.
      Don't know where it started, but it is an old statement of how done brisket is.
      -
      Back when I first started smoking brisket, I kept trying to imagine that feel as I "poked" each packer with my Thermapen Mk4.
      -
      To my "feel", the point with the fat marbling, rendered into oil, probes very soft, but the flat always probed a bit more firm. This probing was also done on brisket purchased at 5 different Phoenix resteraunts as well.
      I was desperately trying to get the"feel" of it you see.
      You know, we want it right! Right?
      -
      So...
      I designed, built, and used a tool that tells me just how tender each probing of the meat truly is, in a measurable, recordable, accurate number.
      It measures brisket resistance in fractions of an ounce.
      -
      Probes like butter, melted, soft, at some warm temperature... maybe left out overnight on the table in a 70°F room.
      In thinking about this highly subjective way to measure if a brisket is done or not, I found the "pull back" method online.
      Basically I have stopped using my special tool, and now use the method where if the meats lifts when I pull the probe out, it is not done yet.
      Try it

      Comment


      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        Interesting once again, BBQ_Bill !

      • BBQ_Bill
        BBQ_Bill commented
        Editing a comment
        wcpreston
        Once the spot in the middle of the flat stops lifting, I now pull that particular packer to rest.
        -
        Each time a new "revelation" occurs during a smoke/cook, I add it to my notes to help me during the next smoke/cook.
        -
        Am always competing with that last time, trying to make them better than the last briskets.
        My wife says, "You are SO critical of the way it turned out! You are NEVER satisfied!"
        -
        I smile and say... "You are right dear, and this is how I get better and better."

      • ColonialDawg
        ColonialDawg commented
        Editing a comment
        You are exactly right, Bill. I enjoy reading others’ experiences because I always learn something. The biggest thing is there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to brisket. I am always on the journey to the perfect brisket, which is darn near impossible because every packer is imperfect in some way. The great thing is no matter what, they taste amazing, and I’ve never had guests complain.
    • BBQ_Bill
      Club Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 409
      • Phoenix, Arizona

      #23
      ColonialDawg
      I tried to add a small amount of Better Than Bouillon once and a cutomer actually spit a sample out.
      She said "That tastes weird!"
      (I brought that sad experimental packer back home)
      -
      Normally...
      At 10:00 a.m. Saturday morning, I pull my briskets from the long hold, still wrapped, and put them on top of pre-heated 2-liter bottles full of water.
      The bottles have been heated in the microwave for about 9 minutes to about 185°F per my Thermapen.
      With fresh towels laid over, I close the cooler and off I go to sell.
      So my 25 hours of 'heat on the meat' starts at 10 a.m. Friday morning, and stops when a steaming packer is pulled, opened, and sliced starting at 11 a.m. the next day, on Saturday morning.
      At that time, I slice, weigh, hand out hot samples, and then watch the reactions of the eaters that are there waiting in line.
      -
      The facts are that my experiments are non-stop, with almost every cook slightly different than the last.
      -
      At this time in my quest for the best, it is all about the meat. I thank my God that my procedure is pretty solid.
      -
      With the EXACT SAME process for three packers cooked side-by-side, they can be quite different tasting.
      This fact alone makes it incredibly difficult to know if my slight change was a good one or not.
      (With the exception being the Bouillon disaster
      -
      Just ask yourself...
      1) Are there "Dairy Influences" in that hunk of bovine on the cutting board? With Costco Prime, I never know!
      Could be a full-blooded Guernsey or Holstein for all I know. (Strike One?)
      2) All of the cattle we buy are grass fed, then feedlot fed some sort of grain. If the last part of that beeves life was eating nothing but corn, the sad fact is that the flavor will spiral down and out of the meat. That fat was built from corn. Research says that could be... (Strike Two?)
      3) My experimental change was not a good one?
      You get the picture...
      -
      When I want to smoke brisket for family and friends for Christmas, or for a wedding or some other very special occasion, I fall back to my notes with a proven prep and smoke procedure. One that will produce incredible results, AND I order CreekStone Prime to be shipped in at about $140 per packer.
      I smoke through the stall and build some incredibly delicious black/mahogany bark from a proven rub.
      EVERYTHING is weighed, measured and focus is keen.
      Upon first bites, the expressions on the faces are amazing my friend, simply amazing.
      THAT is where I REALLY want to shine, with my family.
      -
      Why is Aaron Franklin's brisket SO good?
      He uses CreekStone and a solid proven method.

      Smoke On!
      Last edited by BBQ_Bill; January 24, 2019, 08:42 AM.

      Comment


      • ColonialDawg
        ColonialDawg commented
        Editing a comment
        Indeed! I hope to one day be able to try a Creekstone or Snake River Brisket. I wouldn’t mind even trying wagyu. I believe Franklin also uses salt and pepper only on his briskets, if I am not mistaken. Sometimes simple is the best strategy.

      • BBQ_Bill
        BBQ_Bill commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes he does. The "Dalmatian rub" is his thing. He also has exceptional buying power at CreekStone. Some of the best briskets I have ever smoked were nothing more than really great beef, salt and pepper.

      • jecucolo
        jecucolo commented
        Editing a comment
        I bought a Snake River brisket once and they are beautiful but for my money the improvement didn’t justify the triple price increase. Once I got my little system down a prime cut is awesome.
    • wcpreston
      Club Member
      • Nov 2016
      • 198

      #24
      BBQ_Bill Hey, Bill. Seems like you have this down! Thanks for sharing your wisdom. What do you think about wet aging the brisket? I've been wet aging them for 30 days before I cook. Seemed to make a big diff. Your thoughts?

      So looks like you don't like injecting

      Comment


      • BBQ_Bill
        BBQ_Bill commented
        Editing a comment
        Laying here in bed thinking about tomorrows brisket smoke. I like to wet age at about 33°F for at least 30 days. No more than 60 days past the pack date. I don't inject even though I have several units. I may some day. We will see...
    • PappyBBQ
      Charter Member
      • May 2015
      • 496
      • Los Angeles
      • Equipment:
        Brinkman Gas/Charcoal duo with offset firebox
        Pit Barrel Cooker
        Maverick Remote Temperature Gizmo with Pit and meat probes
        Thermopen Instant thermo

      #25
      This thread has been worth the price of membership. What a fine discussion!

      Comment


      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        Ikr?

      • new2smoking
        new2smoking commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes, it is. However, I am still wondering why not routinely divide the point and flat? Is there a downside?

      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        People LOVE those slices where it's both point and flat in one slice. Also, I know in my case that I just can't get it right when it's raw. SUPER easy once it's done.
    • BBQ_Bill
      Club Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 409
      • Phoenix, Arizona

      #26
      I was cutting my packers in half for awhile. Stopped and when I have some time, I will give you all the details my friend. Just too tired right now.
      G-nite
      -
      Okay, my brisket smoke is going fine, I have enough KBQ sized wood to finish this cook, and so I have some time to go over the pre-smoke cuts I used to make.
      -
      I never cut through the fat and divided them into two separate muscles, point and flat.
      My cuts were always slicing each packer in half, with one half all flat, and the other half being point with flat below.
      My thoughts for doing this were twofold...
      1) They get done at different times.
      2) I will have more bark.
      -
      The fact is, with the point half, the bottom was flat muscle and not done when the point muscle above it was done.
      So it had to go longer than I had figured and about the same time as when whole.
      Basically, I needed to keep cooking the point half until the bottom portion (flat muscle) was done too.
      -
      Because I wrap to conserve moisture, I wrapped both halves each time.
      This started to feel like a real hassle checking two pieces for being done, and wrapping two halves.
      -
      While it seemed like it was true, that I was getting more bark, I begin to feel like it wasn't worth the extra work to make it happen.
      -
      As it is now, I basically check the flat for doneness of that specific packer.
      When done, I pull and rest that particular brisket.
      -
      Finally, Aaron Franklin does not halve his packers.
      And... he is my role model for the way to make brisket "rock."

      Last edited by BBQ_Bill; February 1, 2019, 10:04 PM.

      Comment


      • wcpreston
        wcpreston commented
        Editing a comment
        You're so helpful and prolific. We're gonna have to meet sometime. We're not THAT far apart.

      • BBQ_Bill
        BBQ_Bill commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you for your kind comments.
        Gotta Zooooom!
    • LiamBlack
      Former Member
      • Aug 2019
      • 5
      • Iceland

      #27
      I had a problem, I'm sure you can help me. Yesterday I found out that my thermometer was not working correctly, during the year the cooking temperature was not correct! For me, it was a shock.

      I always thought that I lacked skill, so my dishes were not what I wanted, but it turned out that my device was broken. He was so upset that he broke it on the spot and went to the store for a can of beer.

      I can’t confide in the choice to sellers or neighbors, everyone is trying to get their own profit or lie. I choose these options. Perhaps they are not perfect, but this is what my own searches led me to. Advise what passed through your experience and did not fail in the measurements.

      Comment

      • MBMorgan
        Club Member
        • Sep 2015
        • 6519
        • Colorado
        • > Weber Genesis EP-330
          > Grilla Grills Original Grilla (OG) pellet smoker
          > Pit Barrel Cooker (gone to a new home)
          > WeberQ 2000 (on "loan" to a relative)
          > Old Smokey Electric (for chickens mostly - when it's too nasty out
          to fiddle with a more capable cooker)
          > Luhr Jensen Little Chief Electric - Top Loader circa 1990 (smoked fish & jerky)
          > Thermoworks Smoke
          > 3 Thermoworks Chef Alarms
          > Thermoworks Thermapen
          > Thermoworks IR-GUN-S
          > Anova sous vide circulator
          > Searzall torch
          > BBQ Guru Rib Ring

        #28
        Originally posted by LiamBlack View Post
        I had a problem, I'm sure you can help me. Yesterday I found out that my thermometer was not working correctly, during the year the cooking temperature was not correct! For me, it was a shock.

        I always thought that I lacked skill, so my dishes were not what I wanted, but it turned out that my device was broken. He was so upset that he broke it on the spot and went to the store for a can of beer.

        I can’t confide in the choice to sellers or neighbors, everyone is trying to get their own profit or lie. I choose these options. Perhaps they are not perfect, but this is what my own searches led me to. Advise what passed through your experience and did not fail in the measurements.
        For accuracy, precision, and customer service, I stick with Thermoworks products. With luck, they’re available in your part of the planet.

        Comment

        • Startersmkr
          Club Member
          • Sep 2019
          • 1

          #29
          Thanks for all the info BBK Bill. I’m smoking my second brisket ever for my granddaughters 1st birthday party tomorrow. Lots of good tips. I’ve done prime rib and multiple steaks so hopefully things go good.

          Comment

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          Masterbuilt MPS 340/G ThermoTemp XL Propane Smoker

          masterbuilt gas smoker
          This is the first propane smoker with a thermostat, making this baby foolproof. Set ThermoTemp's dial from 175? to 350?F and the thermostat inside will adjust the burner just like an indoor kitchen oven. All you need to do is add wood to the tray above the burner to start smokin'.

          Click here to read our detailed review


          Digital Thermometers Are Your Most Valuable Tool And Here's A Great Buy!

          maverick PT55 thermometer
          A good digital thermometer keeps you from serving dry overcooked food or dangerously undercooked food. They are much faster and much more accurate than dial thermometers. YOU NEED ONE!

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          Track Up To Six Temperatures At Once

          Grilla pellet smoker
          FireBoard Drive 2 is an updated version of a well-received product that sets the standard for performance and functionality in the wireless food thermometer/thermostatic controller class.

          Click here for our review of this unique device


          The Cool Kettle With The Hinged Hood We Always Wanted

          NK-22-Ck Grill
          Napoleon's NK22CK-C Charcoal Kettle Grill puts a few spins on the familiar kettle design. In fact, the hinged lid with a handle on the front, spins in a rotary motion 180 degrees. It's hard to beat a Weber kettle, but Napoleon holds its own and adds some unique features to make the NK22CK-C a viable alternative.

          Click here for more about what makes this grill special


          Finally, A Great Portable Pellet Smoker

          Green Mountain Davey Crockett Grill
          Green Mountain's portable Davy Crockett Pellet Smoker is one mean tailgating and picnic machine. But it's also gaining popularity with people who want to add a small, set it and forget it pellet smoker to their backyard arsenal. And with their WiFi capabilities you can control and monitor Davy Crocket from your smart phone or laptop.

          Click here to read our detailed review and to order