Is it safe...Brisket cooked at 160f

[Willy]

I've been meaning to post the following for a few weeks now and this thread reminded me, so here goes:

Cook's Illustrated says the FDA guidelines for cooling liquids (such as stocks) is to get the temp to 70°F in no more than two hours, then to 40°F in no more than four MORE hours! I always try to get it cooled to 50-ish (ice bath) in no more than a couple of hours and then popped into the fridge or ice chest right away. I am surprised to see the six hour window. I'll keep doing it my way. Staying in the 140°--40°F "danger zone" for almost six hours (CI says cooling at room temp brings the temp for three-ish quarts of stock down to about 85°F) seems quite long, and, well, dangerous, but I guess it isn't.

Question: Is salmonella air borne? Obviously any bugs in the boiled stock will e killed, but what about recontamination?

@tbob4: I guess I'm all polled out! But, for around the house shoes, I love Crocs (knockoffs really).

[Steve Vojtek]

Willy
I think that once you cool it to 70f the bacterial growth slows down enough to give you a 4 hour window to cool it to 40f. Maybe that is the theory behind it? I don't know but 6 hours does seems like a long time.

[TheCountofQ]

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is another thing I would like to know, about the original scenario. Should some microbe begin to multiply, would it typically grow along the surface or would it likely begin penetrating inwards.

I have seen the occasional post concerning questionable meat, where recommendations are to cut away the outer layer, so I would assume it would stay on the surface from that, but I don't understand why it would not penetrate deeper instead.

[Spinaker]

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is another thing I

I don't think they burrow down into the meat. I believe they just live on the surface. But i don't really know. it just seems to me that you always here about things that are "on the surface".

[tbob4]

TheCountofQWilly : Neither one of you are not beating a dead horse - all info is good. I've mentioned before on the site, my wife has a degree in Animal Science and Biology with food safety and butchering classes under her belt. She goes overboard when it comes to food safety and she admits it. She likes her steak Medium, at a minimum, because of it. She also keeps her distance from sea food, for reasons that are too gross to go into. I love sea food. She and I argue a lot about things as trivial (to me) as how long a rack of ribs should be on the counter when I'm prepping them. She LOVES the fact that I bought a Foodsaver vacuum device because it eliminates some of the aerobics under which certain things thrive. Temperature does, as well. My son began as an Epidemiologist major at Tulane and switched to Biology and now is getting a Masters in Marine Biology. (He suffered from a really bad bout of food poisoning from undercooked Impala in Africa when he was in Junior High School. That's a whole story about witch doctors and remedies that don't go with this thread). He does not share my wife's concerns about MY food prep but has, essentially, the same education when it comes to Epidemiology and food. So even in a family with experts, there is considerable debate.

[Willy]

Agree 100%. It's all about learning--which comes from asking.

[Northside Brian]

her dislike for seafood..does that include fish or just shellfish? I have many friends who will eat fish but not touch shrimp, lobster, clams,oysters etc...

[tbob4]

Northside Brian - She has never liked the taste of shell fish but she doesn't eat fish because the parasites in some fish are visible. She used to eat fish with that knowledge but one time she actually saw some and that was it.

[lschweig]

The bacteria are really mostly on the surface unless if you have a really rotted piece of meat that is mushy and stinks to high heaven and even then the bacteria needs air to survive for the most part. This is one of the reasons that it is recommended to always rinse off your meat after removing from the packaging with cold water thus largely washing away the surface bacterial layer. Salt like dry brining kills almost all of the bacteria. Think about salt cod and etc.

My rule of thumb is that if it comes out of the packaging kind of slimy, rinse it thoroughly with cold water (I do this always anyway), let it sit for a bit, drag a dry finger across it, and maybe do a sniff test.

We have almost never had the green apple quick steps.

[SlushDeezey]

I'd eat it but it would be just to prove what a culinary badass I am. Of course, I'd probably have to eat Imodium like skittles to stop the Hershey squirts afterwards but after the chills stopped I'd be okay. Girly men. 😃

[EdF]

"... but after the chills stopped ...". Oh yeah! DAMHIKT!

[TheCountofQ]

SlushDeezey We'll serve it up with some dry rice and uncooked pinto beans. Maybe some unsweet cocoa powder for dessert?

The day before my flight back from Honduras, I was eating them like M&Ms. Think I gotta hold of some beans... rather, they gotta hold of me!!

[Steve Vojtek]

http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/sous_vide_and_the_grill.html

I just found this on the main site of Amazing ribs. It may be relevant here....It's about cooking temps and pathogens..

[Bruce R]

Interesting discussion. There's to many unknowns and potential variables here to know for sure. First of all, where and how was the temp measured? It is true the surface temp vs air temp will be different, but for sake of discussion, lets assume the air at the MEAT LEVEL was a constant 160. If the surface temp was only 130, a 30 degree difference, the 7-log lethality for salmonella is only 121 min at 130 degrees according to the USDA pasteurization guidelines. Does this factor potential salmonella heat resistance? Who knows. And if it is a factor, is 15 hours enough time to overcome it? And we really don't know what surface temp was reached (the internal temperature is not what's we're concerned about as far as pasteurization, otherwise we wouldn't be able to eat rare or medium rare steaks, right?) And are we sure it was a constant 160 air temp? Doubtful, depending on the cooker. Assuming not, what were the minimum and maximum temps and for how long? Again, who knows. So therefore, too many unknowns to know. Better part of valor would be to avoid. All of that is meaningless anyway unless eating shoe leather is your thing, which would be about the texture of that poor brisket at that temp.

Whew. I need a beer...

[Jerod Broussard]

Not so on the medium-rare steaks. You are applying enough heat to the surface to kill the pathogens if present. We are dealing with surface contamination. You could have a serious problem eating medium-rare steaks if you tenderize them.

[frijolefrito]

So you think In your head the slower and lower the better? I thought that and tried cooking at a straight 180 and I started to get disillusioned with my product. I went back to 225 and thought, THAT'S how I messed up. I love 225 as a temp and use it for many things.

[TheCountofQ]

No, NONE of us here believe that cooking that low is better. Not by any means (unless it is a sous vide cook, which I have yet to try).

Someone's (NOT from this website) post came across my facebook feed, where a discussion began as to if the meat would actually be SAFE to eat (assuming one could even chew it enough to actually swallow). A couple of people there posted that cooking in a 160*F environment would kill the surface bacteria, and it would be safe.

This is NOT a discussion on quality!! Only safety!!

While borderline, at best, there are enough variables that I think most of us here would agree that it would not be a risk worth taking.

[ProfessorJohn]

There is not enough information in the original scenario to really know; I think it would be safe, but I doubt that it was tender. The 160 can be safe as long as high humidity. It may even be safe in a smoker, but it would take a long time if ever to get a brisket tender ; it takes fairly high temperature with humidity to break down connective tissue. The 130 for 121 minutes is from USDA time temperature combinations for safe cooking of meat to eliminate Salmonella but it is also based upon 90% Relative Humidity. The 225 is going to give you much better results for both safety and quality.
Because water is continuously evaporating from the surface of cooking meat, the temperature of the surface of the meat is the same as wet bulb temperature and the air in the chamber is the dry bulb temperature. The drier the chamber the larger the difference between the air temp and the meat temp. This was one of the causative factors in Salmonella associated with jerky that was processed at high elevations and never reached a lethal temperature before the drying of the meat became protective to the bacteria.

[TheCountofQ]

Thanks for that input. From your intro, it sounds as if we have another food scientist on board. Sweet!!

[EdF]

Very cool! Welcome!

[EdF]

ProfessorJohn Are you using the Joule as a supplement for the Polyscience, or is it becoming more go to, or what?

[ProfessorJohn]

EdF The Joule is almost perfect for home use but I need/want a larger pot at home; at least 4 gallon. I have had the Polyscience for years along with a 5 gallon cambro with the lid cut out for the thermocirculator. The Polyscience makes more noise than the Joule but I have no problems letting it go for days at work. I also use zip lock freezer bags at home and I use a chamber vacuum machine at work. I get a lot of inspiration from Chef Steps and I have bought both 4 & 8 oz canning jars for doing creme brulee for Valentines Day.

[csumner411]

I'm not sure where to post this, but this looks like a similar thread. I'm trying to figure out if it's safe to eat my brisket, but I'm guessing it was in the danger zone too long.

I setup a 12 lb brisket last night to smoke overnight. Temperature outside was just below freezing and when I went to bet shortly after midnight, the brisket appeared to be stalled at 173 with a grill temp at 267. I was using a digital thermometer on both the brisket and the grill and I'm smoking the brisket on a BGE. During the night, my fire died not for lack of fuel, but probably airflow since I had adjusted the vents a bit to see if I could get the grill temp back down to 225 - 250 range. When I checked at 7 a.m. this morning the grill temp was 73 and the brisket was 99. Outside temp was 30. I restarted the fire and got the grill back up to speed, but it took another 2 hours to get the brisket back to 140. Brisket is now at 192 and climbing.

After reading several posts, I'm assuming my brisket had been in the danger zone too long and should NOT be consumed. I'm guessing it may not be worth eating anyway because of the temperature drop and then restart.

I'm trying to finish it anyway just to so I can see how things turn out, but I'm planning on pitching it unless I hear otherwise.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Jerod Broussard]

Hard to tell since 173 is plenty high and that was no doubt your surface temp. Once you get above 157 degrees the required lethality occurs instantly. Even though it came back down you may still be OK but hard to tell with so many unknowns.

[fuzzydaddy]

Welcome to The Pit! We'd love to get an intro from you over in the Introduce Yourself channel when you get a minute. https://pitmaster.amazingribs.com/fo...troductions-aa Thanks!

[csumner411]

Thanks for the feedback. I think the only unknown I'm concerned about is the time in the danger zone since the grill was over 260 when I left it, but it obviously cooled at some point during the night. The brisket was on the grill for 5+ hours when I checked it at midnight (brisket temp 173) so it sounds like any surface bacteria would have been killed. Since the brisket remained on the BGE while the temperature fell back into the danger zone, I'm curious where or how it develops new lethal bacteria. Would it pick it up from the night air? Just trying to understand.

Thanks for your help.