Need Help Reproducing Katz's Bark

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Well, I've made the "Close to Katz's" recipe a whole bunch, and it's flippin' phenomenal. Meathead, I know I'm in the choir, and you hear this all the time, but its absolutely inspired — your Magnum Opus! (Magnum OpasTrami, if you will).

So here's my deal. I love the rub, and it IS undoubtedly, uncanny, how close it gets, in flavor profile, to Katz's. I love it, and will keep making it and enjoying it that way, for the rest of my life. But as a pet project, I have been trying to get closer to the actual color, texture, and consistency of Katz's. If you've been to Katz's, you know that their pastrami has a shiny, very black, and relatively smooth texture (it has an almost lacquered appearance). The CtK approach, for me anyway, comes out a mahogany color, and the outside is fairly coarse.

So I would love any and all suggestions. Nothing is too crazy. I've become fairly obsessed with cracking this one, and any ideas and intel you guys may have, would be a huge help. I haven't been able to dig up much in the way of insights, into what they do for the bark, at the restaurant. I *have* heard that Jake Dell actually boils his pastrami (naked - not even bagged), for something like two hours(!), before cooling, and then later steaming. And a little research shows that, on their take home instructions, they also tell you to take it out of the bag and boil it directly. So that part is probably correct. I can't imagine how boiling it would *help* the bark though... But I figure, whatever their secret actually *IS,* it must help make their briskets somehow able to withstand such punishment!

By way of information, I use a Kamado Joe Big Joe for my cooks. Also I am including a couple of photos for reference. The one with the knife is from Katz's. The other one is from a cook that Troutman did, which accurately represents the color/character I get with the CtK recipe.

Thanks y'all!

[Jerod Broussard]

I've read they hang that stuff and smoke at 175 for weeks. Need to fact check that, but I'm sure that aids in bark if it is so.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Soooooo. I feel like that might be a teensy bit tricky to do, in my Kamado. 😬

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Any advice for a lowly schmuck, with a mere home system to work with?

[bbqLuv]

Maybe a learned skill to create that bark. We had some friends over and his wife made some guacamole. She mixed up a batch right in front of me. It was so good. But I have not been able to reproduce it myself, although I keep trying.

[bbqLuv]

Looks amazing. I'm sure it tastes as good as it looks.
Without hesitation, I would pair that with PBR! served at 42*F

[Redwng]

Looks really good from here!

[texastweeter]

Be stopping by there in two weeks again. Every time I ask about the process, every time I get a different answer, lol.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Please comment here, to tell us what you learn anyway? 🙃

[STEbbq]

The Hardcore Carnivore Black rub has Activated Charcoal which definitely makes the bark darker and black. Something to think about.

https://www.hardcorecarnivore.com/collections/shop/products/hardcore-carnivore-black

[STEbbq]

gboss all good points. I do know the Hardcore rub is pretty popular and I know it is famous for the blackness due to the charcoal. I too would be interested in any deep dive on the ingredient!

[Meathead]

I have not tried testing activated charcoal in a rub. Basically it is a colorant. Flavorless. Not readily available in a grocery so why put it in a recipe? Nut it is a good cheap filler for Jess (hardcore carnivore).

[jfmorris]

I like that rub when I SV a steak - it looks seared even before it hits the grill, haha. My wife thinks it’s too salty though.

[rickgregory]

They steam for service, right? That would help it glisten.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

They certainly do. But so do I. 😬

Their bark is still significantly gleaming-er. Smoother. And also blacker. With a nod to the great Sam Elliott, in The Big Lebowski, theirs is "darker than a black steers tookus, on a moonless prairie night."

[tbob4]

I have never been to Katz’ but I have made Meathead’s pastrami. I don’t want to be blasphemous but Troutman ‘s looks a bit better. If I were to guess based on the photos above alone, I would say theirs is a layered application process. I know mine has a lot of peppercorns left on the grill as well as between slices. I don’t have the adhesion that the photo above shows. Mine is also darker. It makes me think that there is a binder of sorts (mustard?) as well a later application in the cooking process. Jerod Broussard ‘s guess lends itself to that theory.

[PaynTrain]

tbob4 It seems to me Troutman 's always looks better!!

[Meathead]

I hafta tell ya, that has been a struggle for me too. Theirs is blacker and adheres better but mine nails the flavor. Blonder and I have kicked this around and haven;t found the solution. Since I lo ve the flavor I have stopped monkeying around with it. But we are planning a commercial pastrami rub and it is a tiny bit different because we ground the seeds finer.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

What do you think about grinding your CtK rub fairly fine. And maybe using mustard or something as a thin slather? Any point?

[Meathead]

I doubt they use a mustard slather, especially since mustard is 98% water.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Sure - I was just thinking for adhesion purposes, and maybe a teeny bit of smoothness/texture. Would you use something else? Or not bother? (Really, I was mostly wondering about blitzing the rub down fine to get a smoother and more homogenous texture…)

[rlozinak]

Boy that looks good

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Dude, it’s amazing. Like, I swear, this photo doesnt even do it justice. Bucket list material. But know that, having tried it, you’ll spend the rest of your days trying to make something close. You’ve been warned.

[Red Man]

I’ve never used a Kamado but I do know cooker type has a large effect on the bark. I get very dark bark on my kettle but not so much on my PBC. Here’s a couple shots of pastrami I’ve done on the kettle. I use Meatheads rub but skip the crushed whole spices. I use coarse ground black pepper and everything else is store bought jars of ground spices. It doesn’t glisten like Katz’s but it’s pretty black. I smoke it all the way, no steam, and wrap with butcher paper when I’m happy with the bark, usually 180-190 IT.

[Red Man]

MonsterDuckMadness I’ve never unwrapped anything once I’ve wrapped it, until serving of course. I wrap once I like the bark. Typically on my kettle if I don’t wrap at all the bark will be a bit too hard.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Might be worth a try sometime. It’s an interesting experiment. Theory goes that you get all the moisture from wrapping (and you can, of course, pour out and keep all those magic juices, when you unwrap), but it is supposed to also make a discernible difference to how the finished bark comes out.

[Meathead]

I sometimes will unwrap and toss meat on a hot gas grill just to dry up the surface. Has no impact on color though.

[Red Man]

Here’s a shot of my sandwich at Katz’s a few years back. Best pastrami ever!!

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Sir!! I don’t know wether to kiss you or curse you. One look at this shot, and I am immediately transported back there in my mind, replete with smells and involuntary salivation and everything. Ridiculousness. Thanks!(?) I think…

[Meathead]

I'LL HAVE WHAT HE'S HAVING.

[MonsterDuckMadness]

Just thought I’d add this, for folks who’d requested follow up (and anyone else interested). Getting closer, but still not there.

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback, posts, and good thoughts!!

[DTro]

I have nothing to add, I haven't tried making pastrami yet. When I do, hopefully it will be as good as your's looks!