Smoke flavor frustration

[ls1m]

I've been on a multi-year quest for smokey flavored BBQ. I've had it before, rarely, and it's a little difficult to describe: strong, acrid, pungent, not burnt but definitely woody/oaky. No mistake it has been smoked. Some BBQ joints can have it one visit and not the next. It's not just the head-filling aura of vapor, and it's not ashy; it's sharp and distinctive.

As an avid amazingribs reader, I've tried some of their top recommendations:
- Bought a Rec Tec pellet grill, tried every kind of pellet I could find. Very mild smoke flavor, at best.
- Bought a smokin-tube to add to the Rec Tec. Very smokey if you like licking ash trays.
- Bought a Pit Barrel Cooker. I got kinda close with some mesquite lump charcoal once, but couldn't reproduce it. Flavor chips helped a little. Mostly just tasted like burnt drippings.
- Bought a KBQ a few weeks ago. With the bottom poppet only, I get that head-filling aura, and using the top poppet adds ashy texture. Not much smoke flavor. I've tried hickory, mesquite, post oak, all from sports & grocery stores. Looking for a local supplier but not sure who to trust.

What am I missing? I did a turkey yesterday with a 2 1/2" steam pan in the KBQ, fed it mesquite logs for almost 3 hours, set at 265. My wife says it was the best turkey she ever had. It was good, no doubt, dry-brined, juicy and all, but I just can't get the smoke smell into the meat!

If I could make my brisket taste like the post oak smells, I'd be in Heaven. I even tried doing open-flame grilling with the PBC and all that did was put smoke ash on the surface of the meat. Probably because I was using the bottom vent to regulate the fire, starving it of full combustion, making soot. At least I don't get any soot with the KBQ. Awesome design, looks like it has great potential if I actually knew what I was doing.

So what do you think? Wrong fuel? Humidity issues?

Thanks
-Mark

[kmhfive]

Try this thread. I believe spritzing would help:
https://pitmaster.amazingribs.com/fo...-maiden-voyage

BBQ_Bill ?

[CandySueQ]

Other than turkey, you don't say what you've cooked that's smoke deprived. In general, I agree with the spritz above and would add don't wrap meats, cook at lower temps for longer time. Maybe buy a cheap offset smoker to get your smoke fix. All of the smokers you've listed are very efficient cookers. In my experience, more efficient means less smoke.

[ls1m]

Everything is smoke deprived: brisket, chicken, turkey, sausage, ham, ribs. I never wrap anything. I also don't spritz because I tried it once (with water only) and it didn't help, but maybe I'll give it another go. I'm thinking about ordering Franklin's book too. I hear he recommends a lot of spritzing. When I got frustrated with the pellet grill's lack of results, I thought about getting an offset smoker but was put off by the size, weight, cost, and lack of fire control. I read the reviews on the KBQ and figured I could get that perfect blue smoke, if I wanted, just by opening up the top poppet.

Here's my complete process for the turkey. Maybe there's a clue here to what I should change:
1. Spatchcock the turkey (remove the back, spread it out flat)
2. Apply dry brine on the top & bottom and under the breast skin (1/3C kosher salt, 1TBSP light brown sugar, 1tsp pepper)
3. Sit uncovered in fridge for 18 hours or so
4. Mix 4 TBSP of Simon & Garfunkel rub with 4 TBSP light tasting olive oil, let sit for a few hours (no salt)
5. Remove the turkey, apply herb/oil rub, let it sit on counter for 30 minutes while I get the KBQ ready
6. Light a half-chimney of lump charcoal & pour it into the fire box when nice & hot
7. Add a brick-sized split of B&B mesquite BBQ logs, put a binder clip to keep the top poppet closed, open the bottom one fully
8. Put a 2 1/2" steam pan in the third slot from the bottom, pour in 1 gallon of tap water
9. Put the turkey in, put the meat probe into the thickest part of the breast, close the KBQ and turn the thermostat just past 232
10. Put the lid on the firebox as the flames are pretty healthy at this point
11. Check/poke the fire every time the fan stops, adding wood as needed, trying to maintain a good fire without it getting so hot the firebox bends & the lid sticks, shooting for a target temp of 250-270
12. When the probe says 175, pull the door open & do some spot-checks with the Thermapen
13. If it's 165+ all over, it's done; if not, back in for 15 minutes & re-check

It came out beautiful. Everything was moist and tender and flavorful. But, not nearly smoky enough.

[CandySueQ]

I can't improve on your procedure, ls1m!

Maybe your expectations are unrealistic? Are you tasting right after cooking? I've found my tastebuds don't work so well after being around the smoker and cooking stuff! It's better after a shower, but really much better if I taste the next day.

Not a good answer, but maybe you should just take your wife's judgment on it!

[EdF]

There are KBQ owners who will disagree, but I'd skip the water in the pan. Have you tried with both poppets open, or with both and the top one half-open? Might be able to find some kind of a blend that works for you.

[Steve R.]

Clearly you are like the rest of us and need to add to your cooker lineup! Go get a Weber kettle (22" will do for most things, and you can get them for $50 or less on craigslist), order a Slow n Sear, and have total control over the amount of smoke.

[ls1m]

That's what my wife suggested. It does always taste better the next day; maybe it's because I'm not soaked in smoke.

Based on BBQ_Bill 's thread, I'm thinking, add a water pan in the bottom, keep the steam pan too, and spritz with apple cider vinegar.

Anything else?

[ls1m]

Can I expect any difference between air-dried and kiln-dried (store-bought) wood? Besides the moisture content, is there a difference in flavor?

[CandySueQ]

I don't think so. I don't like the thought of sprayed-for-insect wood even though it's supposed to be a safe spray. That's FL regs. Most everywhere else is kiln dried.

[EdF]

Well, Bill K definitely recommend air-dried because of the convection inside the KBQ. He recommends 20-35%. I haven't used kiln-dried so far.

[sblair1255]

I had a KBQ and I would lean towards oak and mesquite. I always had the dirty poppet open, but I found if my fire was burning too good even with the lid on, the smoke taste was too light for me.. Might try just adding one log at a time and letting the coal bed burn way down before adding one log. it will smoke more that way and might help.

[HouseHomey]

CandySueQ what she said. Wow, sounds like I want to eat at your house.

as a professional cook I know the onlly thing I eat After work is from a taqueria and spicy or Pho/Vietnamese food. I don't want anything else. When I don't work it's a different story. I think she's right about being around the smoke all day.

also. What do you or did you do for a living? My father in law was a Smokeeater for many years and his taste buds are whacked!

just some thoughts.

[CandySueQ]

After a contest, for me it's Tex-Mex, salad bar or Sushi!

[BBQ_Bill]

Hey HouseHomey, this is probably a dumb question, but what profession is a Smokeeater... a Fireman, a Pitmaster?

[Mr. Bones]

BBQ_Bill , Smoke Eater is a Fireman, several steps up th' ladder from a Snake Eater, like myself

[ls1m]

CandySueQ what she said. Wow, sounds like I want to eat at your house.

as a professional cook I know the onlly thing I eat After work is from a taqueria and spicy or Pho/Vietnamese food. I don't want anything else. When I don't work it's a different story. I think she's right about being around the smoke all day.

also. What do you or did you do for a living? My father in law was a Smokeeater for many years and his taste buds are whacked!

just some thoughts.

I used to work at a pizza joint when I was younger. Never got tired of it. I could eat anything if it was on a pizza. One of my favorites was sausage and juice from the jalapeno bucket.

That was before adulthood. Now I do programming in and industrial facility. The grilling started in earnest when I stopped drinking 4 years ago. Really helped keep my mind off of my cravings, substituting beef for bourbon Maybe the chemicals at work have fried my taste buds who knows...

[BBQ_Bill]

Good morning ls1m .
According to Dr. Blonder's studies...
Spritz on the meat makes it moist, and attracts smoke.
Cold meat also attracts smoke, and I believe that moist air causes the smoke to adhere to the product in the smoker just as it does on the KBQ fans when I use water.
-
I also know from experience that puddles on the meat prevent bark from forming, and "tipping" a brisket to remove puddles will help that area form bark.
Sorry, but I'm not sure about the flavor properties of kiln-dried wood versus air-dried wood.
I am aware that air-dried wood contains more moisture and to me that adds moisture to the cook box, and more adhesion of smoke/flavor to the product.
-
I have used cheap off-set smokers for many years, and as they burned out, purchased more until I finally purchased a KBQ.
My bark was great on my very first KBQ smoke, which was two briskets, and the flavor was incredible per all of the "eaters".
I DID however, use the lid during that entire smoke, only removing it when adding wood.
From NOT using it, I discovered that the lid on the KBQ is important to build bark and thus more smoke and flavor onto my products.
In my opinion, the lid traps the smoke, forcing more through the coals and therefore, more smoke goes into the cooking/smoking chamber.
Also, with more time in the smoke, you get more smoke flavor, so therefore lower temperatures and very cold meat will add time in the smoker before it's done.
-
To my own personal tastes, White Oak has a subtle, lighter flavor with Hickory and Mesquite having stronger smoke profiles.
In smoking meats, I have discovered though experience that there is good light-blue-small-molecule smoke, and there is dirty white and even worse black smoke.
The dirty smoke has creosote in it, and when that gets on the meat (depending on how much) the flavor can be much more smoky and even up to bitter in flavor.
If not TOO much, it tastes good to most that have eaten my products over the years.
The problem with dirty smoke is... it appears to cause distress to the "eaters" afterwards.
In the past when I really "poured on" the dirty smoke, it caused:
1) Diarrhea
2) Heartburn
3) Yucky stomach feelings
4) Burping up smoke flavor hours later and even the next day
-
A friend at work said "I cannot eat smoked meats because I get bad heartburn and burp smoky tastes for a long time, even the next day."
So, I smoked four racks of NAMP 130 series ribs (beef chuck short ribs) on one of my KBQ's and told this friend to try one, that it would not give him any bad "aftereffects".
The next day he was delighted and wanting more with NO heartburn and NO burping up smokey flavored air.
On those ribs I used Oak for 4 hours and finished with Mesquite, all were air dried woods.
I spritzed with Apple Cider Vinegar (Heavily near the end of the smoke) and used a water pan.
Ran with the bottom poppet wide open (only) with the lid ON during the entire cook when not adding wood.
-
On another note...
If I am not mistaken, smoke does not penetrate deeply into the meat... more research is needed to verify that.
I do agree that when I am out there IN the smoke, working with the meat and the smokers, I become "deadened" in my sense of taste and smell.
If I eat right after the smoke, I cannot taste the smokey flavor and rely on my family and friends that have not been near the fire for "how much smoke flavor" there is.
(We always do a poll after we eat and score the many attributes of the meats, like overall flavor, moistness, bark flavor, tenderness, and of course smoky flavor)
-
Finally, to get more smoky flavor, I would smoke the product in my KBQ's as follows:
1) Start out with COLD meat.
2) Run Mesquite because to me it smokes like an "oil barge on fire".
3) Run with a cookie sheet filled with water in the bottom.
4) Run with a Full Sized Steam pan in the lowest shelf it will fit, and fill it half full of water as well.
5) The Lid On. (Obviously except when adding wood)
6) Keep the meat cool and moist with spritz. (But don't spray it so much that you wash the smoke off)
7) Run the bottom poppet wide open and the top poppet at 1/8" open. (About like a nickle width)
8) Run at a lower temperature to get more smoke time in before the product is done.
9) Spritz often.
10) Finally, I think it best to actually enjoy the meat I worked so hard to prepare, I would take a shower and change my clothes before eating

Also, you probably already know this, but pull the plug (I have a switch) on power before adding wood to the KBQ to keep ash off of the meat.
Check the poppets right after each wood add as they can get bumped out of position very easily.
If the smoke gets really heavy in coming out of the control box, I close the top poppet until it clears up to keep the creosote down.
Keep about a 1" layer of hot coal bed in the fire box with the coal tray holes covered so the smoke is clean.
Cook with the product closer to the door and farther from the heat/smoke manifold in the back.

I hope all this helps...
Smoke On!

[SMOG MAN]

Thanks for the write up Bill, I think your right!

[BBQ_Bill]

Happy to share and hopefully help my fellow smokin' friends.

[6th Borough BBQ]

This has got to be a joke right?

[BBQ_Bill]

Yeah, I am just "blowing smoke"

[ls1m]

Excellent writeup, thank you Bill. It's rare to find someone who knows a lot, is willing to help, and can actually write well.

You know, you're absolutely right about that creosote. I remember burping smoke taste after some long cooks, the day after I ate. It wasn't very pleasant, and my stomach was sour too. Next cook is tomorrow early AM. We'll see how it goes with a second water pan on the bottom and apple juice spritzing.

-Mark

[BBQ_Bill]

You are most welcome, and thank you for your kind words Mark.

[BBQ_Bill]

Hey Mark,
I have never used straight Apple Juice before.
Am thinking it burns at around 350°F so as long as the meats surface doesn't get too high, it shouldn't burn and get bitter.
-
For my spritz...
I currently use Apple Cider Vinegar (Because Aaron Franklin "swears" by it) mixed with a tablespoon of Worcestershire, a tablespoon of Soy Sauce, with about 40% water by volume in roughly 3/4 of a quart total.
As far as sugar in my spritz goes, I do add just a "touch" at about 1/4 teaspoon of brown sugar.
I shake well before using and keep it refrigerated to help keep things cool.
-
Cooks DO take longer with all of the cooling I do, which makes for more smoke, more bark and more flavor in my experience.

[Spinaker]

Bill,
What temp are you running your pit at?

[BBQ_Bill]

I have a load of briskets on and running at an average of 230°F.
The color looks pretty good, so I pulled and wrapped them at 9-1/2 hours into the smoke.

[ls1m]

Well, I used straight apple juice, spritzed often, lowered the temp and got one heck of a beautiful bird. Juicy and tender and absolutely no smoke smell or taste. My wife, who was not sitting next to the pit for hours, agrees. Best turkey ever, even better than last time, but no smoke. I ran with the bottom poppet open fully, top one closed completely. I will have to try again, I suppose this time with the top one open. Also considering buying Franklin's book to hunt for clues.



About 4 1/2 hours, B&B mesquite splits, around 230-240 degrees, a little hotter at the end. I did not put a water pan in the bottom because I didn't have one that would fit. Ran a 2 1/2" steam pan in the third slot up with a gallon of tap water in it. Must have spritzed it 3-4 times per hour, maybe more. Got a little carried away and almost washed off all the herbs. Nothing but compliments at dinner. But if I didn't tell them it was wood-smoked, they wouldn't have been able to tell.

I have some splits that I bought from Fruita: hickory, post oak and peach. Maybe I'll do something small & see if the wood makes any difference. I've only got 10 lb of each, so not enough to do a brisket or ribs. I think the family is pretty full up of turkey for a while. Chicken, maybe.

-Mark

[EdF]

Great looking turkey. Good luck on your quest for richer smoke flavor!

[BBQ_Bill]

Agreed EdF
Great looking bird!
Am deeply researching smoke and the flavor thing.
You MAY have rinsed the smoke flavoring off as too much starts to run and carry away the flavor.
A light fine mist with just enough to make it moist as it drys is best.