SO looking at Serious Eats, Kenji does both chuck roast and pork shoulder in the SV first, then finished in the smoker. I've seen recipes here, with tritip and the like where folks have smoked first for a couple of hours, then cooled and finished in the SV with a final grill or oven trip to dry things out.
I can see the SV then smoke approach working when bark is the primary concern and the reverse when it's not. Here's my question...
I"ve got a ~2-3lb lamb shoulder. Would you guys 1) smoke, then SV or 2) SV then smoke? And why?
I usually keep it simple and SV then smoke...cook it up to say, 10-15 degrees shy of your target temp, pull it from the water and pat dry, then smoke till done. Some folks like the QVQ method as you mention where you smoke it from raw for a while, then SV it till it's at temp, then back on the grill to finish/glaze or whatever but to me that's just an extra step that I don't feel adds all that much. Maybe that'll be my next experiment, compare the 2 methods. Anyway either way will work, follow your heart.
So I've got a beef cheek and the lamb shoulder. I'm smoking the cheek today and then into the SV with it... and I think I'll then do the lamb in reverse. No matter how it turns out, I'm eating the evidence.
I have only gone the SVQ route with beef ribs and pastrami, but I think the idea with the QVQ is to get some smoke on the meat before the SV. I plan on trying it one day, but I am basically lazy and it is an extra step...
I've done both ways with chuckies and IMHO it's better to smoke it a couple of hours before bagging and putting it in to the bath. We typically like our chuckies mid-rare and sear them after they come out of the SV so we're not worried about bark. The smoke really comes through in the final product and it's like an overgrown ribeye.
Sous Vide Que, Que Vide, or QVQ. You will find proponents for each.
I'm flexible. I find QVQ produces the combination of flavor and finish.
To my knowledge, JKLA has never done a QVQ type project, as he figures that firing up his smoker twice is too much work. Meanwhile, have you seen some of his non-sous vide recipes? Firing up twice is too much work? Maybe to someone who isn't that into grilling/smoking and sous vide synergy...
I trust Kenji's sous vide advice as far as I can throw Kenji. He's sponsored by Anova, so is very invested in the various sales myths that go with sous vide (just as infusion of flavor into protein), and doesn't seem as curious about fiddling with time and temp as pretty much all of the other sous vide bloggers who aren't sponsored by Big Circulator. As Meathead wrote, Don't Trust the Marketers. Kenji is a marketer (didn't he write a nice blurb for Meathead? or the Intro?)
I've followed Kenji since his days at Cook's Illustrated. The principles of SV are the same regardless of brand of circulator. Plus, he has a knowledge of science. I've worked in clinical/research/biotech and NASA labs for 42 years and have a pretty well honed ability to detect BS. I don't agree with your assessment of Kenji.
Free country. I've been a large fan of Kenji. I don't care for many of his sous vide stories and I've made my case. I work in data assessment.
Further, the flavor penetration myth of sous vide needs to die, because it's nonsense.
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Blaze 32" Gasser with Sear Station and Rotisserie
Jenn-Air 6 Burner w/ Dual Oven and Stainless Flat Top
Camp Chef Explorer 60EX with Grill Box and Griddle
Thermoworks Thermapen Mk4
Maverick ET-733 2-Probe Wireless Thermometer
Thermopro TP20 2-Probe Wireless Thermometer
Anova 900W Sous Vide Immersion Circulator
Selection of Grandma's Antique Cast Iron Cookware
Bayou Classic Stainless Steel Oyster/Turkey Cooker
Weber Standard Size Chimney Starter
Foodsaver Vac Sealer
I'm with Potkettleblack on the QVQ route... but I cheat...
Anytime that I fire up the smoker for the final "Q" step, I am usually also making that step the 1st "Q" for the next piece of meat or two (or a full PBC's worth), bagging it and into the freezer ready for the next round (the "V") at my own pace.
You know that kind or brilliance only comes from sitting back in a comfortable wicker chair, taking a long drag on a nice Cuban cigar and sipping some smooth, aged bourbon. Ahh the good life in the Low Country !!
Sous Vide Que, Que Vide, or QVQ. You will find proponents for each.
I trust Kenji's sous vide advice as far as I can throw Kenji. He's sponsored by Anova, so is very invested in the various sales myths that go with sous vide (just as infusion of flavor into protein), and doesn't seem as curious about fiddling with time and temp as pretty much all of the other sous vide bloggers who aren't sponsored by Big Circulator. As Meathead wrote, Don't Trust the Marketers. Kenji is a marketer (didn't he write a nice blurb for Meathead? or the Intro?)
Actually his stuff almost always looks into various times and temp combinations so I can't agree with you there. What he hasn't done is test the smoke before or smoke after issue. You have to read the article, not just his recipes though. And the sponsorship doesn't bother me. SE needs money to pay people, so.. eh.
Most SV sites I see just give recipes which aren't useful because you can't know why they're picking that time/temp combo or if they tried others.
I smoked the beef cheek to 133F today, pulled it and bagged it. Will SV tomorrow. Smoking 7lb of bacon tomorrow along with the lamb shoulder for SVing over the weekend.
Last edited by rickgregory; March 27, 2019, 08:42 PM.
Actually his stuff almost always looks into various times and temp combinations so I can't agree with you there. What he hasn't done is test the smoke before or smoke after issue. You have to read the article, not just his recipes though. And the sponsorship doesn't bother me. SE needs money to pay people, so.. eh.
My beef with Kenji on experimentation is that he generally goes like 10* at a time. And has never, to my knowledge, gone beyond 48 hours. He will occasionally mention 48+ results, but I've never seen an image from him, so I think he reports results of others. Which is I guess is fine.
Here's an example:
135-145-155, 12h-24h-36h
For Brisket.
Anyone who has ever sous vided any working muscle of a cow knows that at 135, collagen will not be broken down at 12h. Pretty much anyone who has messed with sous vide a bit knows that 145 is a temp for red meat disaster.
My test would be more like 130x24-48-72, 135x24-48-72 and 150x12-24-36, assuming a limit of 9 brisket samples.
Most SV sites I see just give recipes which aren't useful because you can't know why they're picking that time/temp combo or if they tried others.
I smoked the beef cheek to 133F today, pulled it and bagged it. Will SV tomorrow. Smoking 7lb of bacon tomorrow along with the lamb shoulder for SVing over the weekend.
It would never dawn on JKLA to do something at 133. And yet, that's my short rib temp. And yes, I've done them at 129, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 140 and 155, at various times. And yes, there's the ChefSteps Short Rib series... Who went further than my fumbling about:
ChefSteps is here to make cooking more fun. Get recipes, tips, and videos that show the whys behind the hows for sous vide, grilling, baking, and more.
While ChefSteps also makes Sous Vide equipment, and is married to some of the myths, I feel like they are way more interested in Sous Vide than JKLA. Maybe I'm provincial, but JKLA is solid on basics of sous vide, but doesn't seem, to me, to be as invested in it as Kosher Dosher, Sous Vide Resources, The Alcoholian, Nom Nom Paleo, ChefSteps or PKB. It's the curse of being a cook with broad interests versus something of a specialist.
Anyway, my two cents worth, I've got at least a dozen posts on here of SV, SVQ and QVQ cooks. As PKB points out you need to experiment with as many varieties as possible to find the sweet spot. It's no different than cooking low and slow versus fast and hot. It's not different than cooking with wood or charcoal or propane. Each variant has its place depending on the protein.
With roasts; however, which is what the OP is attempting to cook, I have found QVQ to be superior. Why? Roasting imparts great flavor over an extended period. You want to get the interior done, impart great outer bark flavor and avoid tripping into dry land. The beauty of roasting it first is that you establish that deep flavor profile, you then SV to get the tenderness and complete interior doneness while capturing its juices, then give it that finishing touch with the final smoking, re-establishing bark you softened in the bath.
Without that first step you lose half the battle. The final smoke isn't going to give you the flavor profiles you get with the first smoke when the raw and cold meat takes on most of that flavor. You also miss out on that wonderful purge that develops in the bag once you SV a pre-cooked piece of meat. That stuff is pure liquid gold.
Anyhow, that's one man's opinion. Try it both ways and see if I'm not right, with roasts that is !!!
Well, while I smoked some bacon I tossed the lamb shoulder on, got it to about 120 and then pulled it, chilled it and bagged it. Into the SV bath tomorrow or over the weekend... then more smoked. Then... eat!
PS: PKB - I see what you're saying. I think Kenji is, as you note, viewing SV as a tool in the arsenal and is satisfied with getting it good vs perfect. Need to check out some of the others you mention.
That's basically it. It's the same critique I've leveled at the local SVQ guru. It's not that they're far off base, or wrong. It's that, imo, they haven't explored as widely as specialists, like Norm King.
The problem is, and I mentioned this before, that due to temp and time being variables to test, and the time for each run from 12-72 hrs, it takes a ton of effort and cost to do direct comparison tests.
Almost everyone one has a good SVQ/QVQ recipe that they are satisfied with, but it’s pretty hard to really know what the best combinations of variables is without extensive and controlled testing.
I agree with you overall Polarbear777 , it's almost ridiculous to try. But there are resources out there that have done more extensive iterations at various temps and times with a variety of proteins. Obviously the low and high ends, for the most part, can be discounted. I looked at one that compared chuck roasts at 15-25 hours at 130*. I tried 18, 20 and I think 22. I liked the texture at 18 the best, 20 was almost the same. So three tries to nail the best time, not too bad considering all three were really not that much different, it wasn't like I was throwing anything out.
Also, 'best' is going to be somewhat dependent on what you want. For example, SV a pork shoulder and you can do it so it's tender but sliceable... or you can do it so it shreds and is pullable. Both are fine, depending on what you want. I think it's important to try enough data points that one can know where things are 'good' and where they fall apart (too under done/firm/whatever) and too overdone.
And hey... the nice thing about the web is that there ARE people who are very into a given thing and let us know about it.
Me, I'm hoping the beef cheek I've got in a bath right now (155F for 24 hours) turns out.
The cheek is about 2 hours from hitting 24. Was going to do the lamb shoulder next but the Anova clamp shattered in 2 places and is now a useless pile of plastic. Emailed them. NOT happy.
I'm putting beef cheeks up at the top of my QVQ list because I love Tacos de Cachete are one of my favorites and because they're relatively inexpensive at the Hispanic markets.
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