Sous vide low temp limits

[docjsmith]

What’s the lowest temp anyone has done for meats in the sous vide? I normally don’t go below 131F for beef or 140F for pork…
has any done 120-125F for better beef cuts/steaks? Do you feel it’s safer if the meat has been frozen for 3 days first?

I know there is a cutoff for safety but I’m just wondering how far people regularly push it?

so for an EXAMPLE: lowest you will go / maybe a minimum time
Beef: 125F for 8-10 hours minimum
Pork: 130F for 10-15 hours minimum
Chicken: 160F 10 hours

here is why I pose this question-
i am ok with beef done at 131F but my brother in law likes pretty rare steak - say 120-125F
im trying to get him to do some sous vide and I KNOW he will want to go lower than 131F
(Or should I approach the conversation from a different angle)
thanks
John

[MBMorgan]

What’s the lowest temp anyone has done for meats in the sous vide? I normally don’t go below 131F for beef or 140F for pork…
has any done 120-125F for better beef cuts/steaks? Do you feel it’s safer if the meat has been frozen for 3 days first?

I know there is a cutoff for safety but I’m just wondering how far people regularly push it?

so for an EXAMPLE: lowest you will go / maybe a minimum time
Beef: 125F for 8-10 hours minimum
Pork: 130F for 10-15 hours minimum
Chicken: 160F 10 hours

here is why I pose this question-
i am ok with beef done at 131F but my brother in law likes pretty rare steak - say 120-125F
im trying to get him to do some sous vide and I KNOW he will want to go lower than 131F
(Or should I approach the conversation from a different angle)
thanks
John

I'd have to dig for references ... but the short answer is that for long times spent below 131F (as in sous vide), there are pathogens that have the unfortunate ability to encapsulate themselves as spores that can survive for extended periods at those (and even much higher) temperatures. Spores that when temperatures become more to their liking, will "hatch" to release the aforementioned pathogens that will then resume their favorite pastime of producing toxins to make you sick (or worse).

[randy.56]

MBMorgan is correct, but your brother may have an iron gut. I cooked some chicken last week for the wife an I, to 145, she got sick, I did not. So in my house it is 160 from now on.
Steak I SV to 130, then sear to 140-145. Never got sick.

[Jerod Broussard]

You can run chicken at 140-F. I do it for pulled chicken salads that the ladies prefer.

Microbes SLOWLY start dying at 131-F. Below that, as MBMorgan pointed out, you are just asking for trouble. And when it cometh you'll be lucky not to have a hospital visit.

A Burger Joint in the early 90's undercooked a ton of burgers and sickened I think 700+ and killed 4 kids.

***Edit- I want to follow up on something.

The Burger Joint I mentioned above had instructions on how to cook the burgers. An investigation found that 10 out of 16 burgers cooked to the Burger Joint's specifications did not even get to 140-F. Had they gotten to 155-F, it would have killed the low population of E. coli in the beef and it is very likely NO ONE would have gotten sick.

That shows the pathogenicity of the microbes, even in low numbers.

[docjsmith]

Jack in the Box?

[Jerod Broussard]

Yeah.

[Bob K]

I’m not a food scientist but yes, below 131 is pushing it. Most bugs die at 120, but some bugs (some of the worst ones, like botulism) can still reproduce in that 120-130 range.

Unlike being over 130 where more time is better, more time below 131 is actually very bad because you’re in the danger zone. The time in the danger zone allows the bugs to reproduce enough to reach toxicity. I think the rule of thumb is don’t go more than 2 hours in the danger zone (that’s what USDA says for ground beef anyway, which is more dangerous than steak by far).

I will do steak at 126-128 (for myself and others who get the issue, not for anyone who is ill or infirm), but I limit it to 2 hours. Usually I just set it to 131, especially if nicely marbled. If it’s lean like beef tenderloin, reverse sear, no SV.

[Polarbear777]

If you want a steak below 125 that’s fine but heat in the SV just to the temp and then sear it. No more than two hours max (better yet 1). Basically since you can’t pasteurize don’t give them any time- essentially you’re just doing a slightly longer reverse sear cook.

I like 132 for almost every meat SV, but I’m going 12+ hours to get to pasteurization level.

running a SV cook below 131 for a long time is asking for trouble.

[Oak Smoke]

The above conversation is why I have ignored and even openly disagreed with those telling me to get a steak to room temp before I grill it. I’ve been unfortunate enough to have had real food poisoning, from a sub sandwich place. I never want to go there again. I’m still amazed that when ordering a hamburger or hamburger steak at a restaurant they will ask how I want it cooked. Don’t ever let anything temp you to take the chance of getting sick with these completely avoidable pathogens. It is hard to describe just how sick you can get.

[DogFaced PonySoldier]

The important thing to remember is the microbes on the steak (particularly) are on the surface, and should not be deep in the muscle.

But people eat raw beef (carpaccio? tartare?) without problem. We eat all kinds of microbes all the time.

Don't heat it to 120 and leave it there to incubate for 6 hours. Get it to temp, then pull it in an hour or two and sear it - the sear kills anything on the surface, shouldn't be anything below a mm or two from the surface, assuming the meat was kept cold prior to cooking and handled properly and not spoiled.

(edit) I don't recommend this for anything other than properly handled beef. Not even pork and CERTAINLY not any poultry.

[shify]

As others have mentioned, below 131 is playing with danger but if you are determined to try, I certainly would not cook it 8-10 hours (frankly not sure why you’d sous vide any steak for 8-10 hours regardless of final temp).
Cook it at your temp for only long enough to hit the proper internal temp ~1 hr or so for 1-1 1/2 inch thick steak.

[fzxdoc]

If your brother is not familiar with sous vide, he may be surprised at how rare-looking a steak is at 131°, wall to wall.

Kathryn

[Troutman]

Kathryn is right, when I grill steaks I pull at 122*F and let carry over bring it into the high twenties or as high as 130*F. With SV I stay at 131*F then flash sear. Not a lot of difference in the two, just less gray banding with SV.

[Histrix]

Anybody using sous vide should familiarize themselves with Dr. Baldwins excellent website - https://douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

There are time/temperature tables that will tell you about how long it will take to pasteurize various items.

Chicken is fine at 140 if cooked for a certain time which depends upon thickness.

[acorgihouse]

There is a lot of difference in cooking and pasteurizing, which I think is some of the variability above. Steaks and roasts are cuts of meat with only the surface really exposed, as DogFaced PonySoldier said above. Those cuts of beef are largely clean inside, so cooking to rare is not as dangerous. I routinely sv to 129F, then sear on grill or cast iron pan (like my beef med rare at 132-134F), and don't worry, and I did my microbiology master's in food micro so I'm rather paranoid. Yes, there are spore forming bacteria out there than can survive those temps, things like botulism though are anaerobes and generally won't survive the temp plus the oxygen for the periods of time we cook stuff like that. Poultry, though, has bacteria in the body of the meat, or at least it can, and thus you aren't just worried about the surfaces. Chicken and turkey are routinely cooked to at least 165F, but as Jerod P Broussard said, you can actually cook chicken sous vide to lower temps (in the 140s F) if you hold longer, as some kind of voodoo pasteurization happens. I'm frankly creeped out by poultry at low temps, so don't try it, but I know people who do and who continue to live. Pork is a bit more nebulous, but probably more akin to beef unless you are talking ground pork. The old saw about trichinosis from raw pork is pretty unheard of these days, in this country, from commercially raised and processed pork. Of course, wild stuff you snag on your own is your own responsibility. Ground meats in general are more likely to be problematic, as every little blade cut potentially introduces microbes. If you grind or chop your own, are meticulously clean, and do it right before cooking, you might be in better shape with beef or pork, but poultry still has that issue of bacteria all through it. For sous vide commercially chopped/ground meat, would go with the highest recommended temps. Yeah, sorry, I know this is a ramble, but you do have to be cautious.

[fzxdoc]

Meathead dunks meat into boiling water for a minute or less before grinding to get rid of the surface bacteria

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/hamburger-sloppy-joe-salisbury-steak-recipes/zen-master-hamburger-secrets/

"(2) Pasteurize the meat. Food scientists say that if you dip a piece steak in boiling water (212°F) for 10 seconds before grinding it yourself, it is made safe. I have tried it, and although the exterior turns gray, it grinds well and makes fine flavorful rare patties."
K.

[Smoker_Boy]

We cook all whole chicken to 200.

[docjsmith]

Thank you EVERYONE for your replies! I was out of town for a bit and am just getting back to read these excellent responses. I did get my brother-in-law an Anova stick for Christmas and will just push thru with him… I have a buddy that I got started in in sous vide and his learning curve was a little long but he loves it now and definitely uses it all the time. I believe his first 5 go’s were horribly overdone or way to much brine salt…. It’s tough to give up old ways….

[smabrito]

This is an additional question related to the topic (instead of a reply).
Part of my plan for cooking today is to sous vide some NY strips to 131' then chill in an ice bath. When ready to cook on the charcoal grill this evening, place them on the indirect heat side to bring temp up to the 120s then sear over direct heat. Does this sound like a good plan or am I missing something? Thanks,Scott

[STEbbq]

The ice bath is only needed if you are not searing immediately, which sounds to be the case. If you do want to eat immediately, you can either sear immediately (after following prep below) or chill 20 minutes and sear.

I would pat dry after ice bath, put rub on, then high-heat oil like advacado, then sear to desired look. The meat is already cooked at that point so you are really just adding the searing for presentation.