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water bath canning and Chili... a question for the masses

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    water bath canning and Chili... a question for the masses

    My GF's family has canned many forms of meats, soups and veggies via water bath canning. We recently made a double batch of chili, and the question came up as to how long to let the jars soak in the boiling water. The web only offered a strick no no, stating botulism, the plague and a pox upon the earth will ensue if this method is used. They recommed pressure canning (do not have that hardware). I'm curious to know if others have canned soups/chili/stews this way or just used storage containers to freeze them up. a few other facts, and feel free to ask questions:

    - the chili contained browned ground beef, browned ground pork and leftover brisket flat, cubed. The green pepper, onions, jalapeno's and garlic were all sweated before adding to the mix.
    - the chili was brought to a boil, then reduced to a simmer and removed from the heat after 20-30 minutes (both batches) at over 200 F
    - the quart jars were washed in a dishwasher to be sanitzed better than hand washing.
    - jars were in a boiling water bath in the canner on the stove for 50min per load (3 jars per) and all lids sealed proper. Six quarts were created.

    Full disclosure: I've never canned meat/chili/soup/stew. To me, i feel we cooked this dish twice already, and it will be brought up to hot once more when it is cooked. I expect a shelf life (on the outside) will be about 6 months.

    Comments? opinions? general observations? hints and tips?

    thank you in advance for your wisdom and advice!

    CD
    Last edited by CurlingDog; July 17, 2017, 11:16 AM.

    #2
    I've always just frozen chili and soups. Canning it sounds scary without a pressure cooker.

    Comment


      #3
      I would NEVER can any low-acid food in a boiling water bath. Use a pressure canner or don't can it at all. Freezing is also a viable option.

      A neighbor was saved from certain illness, maybe even death, because her boiling water canned green beans exploded before they had a chance to be eaten.

      Comment


        #4
        You need a pH below 4.6 and preferably below 4.2. Just freeze it and save the ER trip. The bad stuff like an anerobic environment. It's not worth it. Just don't do it without the propers.

        Comment


          #5
          If anything, regular boiling makes canned meats/soups more dangerous for botulism. Here's the logic.

          If you make soup or a stew and leave it on the counter for a few days it'll go bad, fill with mould and start smelling. Would you eat that? Of course not. Why does it go bad if you boiled it, and therefore almost sterilised it? Because all the little critters that are everywhere (air, kitchen surfaces etc) get a lift on a passing air current, drop by, find good food and start multiplying. In that case the effects of bacterial contamination are really apparent (smell/colour etc), nobody would eat that, so there is no risk.

          Now what happens if you can your almost-but-not-quite sterilised meat or soup? No critters can get in, since it's in a sealed jar, so it would seem that it's safe. The problem is that boiling temperatures kill everything but Botulinum spores. When the Clostridium Botulinum are exposed to high temperatures they turn into a very resistant seed-like form that's almost impossible to kill (unless you get above 121 C / 250 F). Everything else outright dies, whereas the Botulinum goes into suspended animation, if you will, and has the run of the place since everything else is dead.

          Normally Botulinum is a puny little bacterium that's not really a danger. If there's too much sugar or salt (or nitrites) around they can't grow. If there's too much acid they can't grow. If there are too many other bacteria they can't grow either: this is why you don't die of botulism if you leave your sourdough starter at room temperature (that and the acidity). It's a pathetic cowardly weakling that always loses out. The only situation where Botulinum can thrive is if they're literally the only living thing around and there's no competition: which is exactly what happens if you can food and simply boil it. It's enough to kill almost all bacteria... but it leaves everything at the mercy of Botulinum.

          Now, jam and marmalade are a different story: in that case it's ok to simply boil your jars. Why? Because you won't kill the Botulinum, but when your jam cools down it'll be too sugary and too acidic for it to wake up and multiply. It won't be dead but it won't be multiplying either, and therefore not a risk for long-term storage.

          This doesn't mean you have to throw away your stuff: if you refrigerate it, it will be perfectly safe (Botulinum doesn't grow below 8-10 C / 45-50 F). What you can't do is keep it at room temperature, because the normal consequence for botulism isn't a tummy ache, it's paralysis and death. It doesn't make sense to risk it.

          Comment


          • EdF
            EdF commented
            Editing a comment
            My name is EdF, and my wife and I approve of this narrative! She's the one who knows about canning and preserving.

          #6
          Absolutely no way I could improve on that explanation. In fact, I think I learned something. Thanks, dtassinari .

          Comment


          • kmhfive
            kmhfive commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm glad he said it first. While I understood it, I'd have spent hours verifying my statements of fact before posting! Yeah, I remember the "good" old days when even store-bought canned goods were thrown out if they started to bulge in the cupboard!

          #7
          Awesome responses folks. I'm going up against people that have canned meat this way for a long time, and they most likely have pressed their luck and did not suffer the effects... so far. I'm not going to be that guy. Yeah, there is tomato paste in it, but one 4oz can in a 3 quart batch of chili is not enough acidity to be safe. Given the years of canning meat in this clan, i know it will be a big arguement to change thier mind but i do know that they have a 2nd fridge in the basement and will insist that they store it there and nowhere else.

          more fun reading here: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs270/en/

          Comment


            #8
            this might be why they have dodged any bullets. Living life on the bleeding edge:

            Though spores of C. botulinum are heat-resistant, the toxin produced by bacteria growing out of the spores under anaerobic conditions is destroyed by boiling (for example, at internal temperature greater than 85 °C for 5 minutes or longer). 85C is 185F....

            Comment


            • HouseHomey
              HouseHomey commented
              Editing a comment
              How about that wood spoon?????

            • dtassinari
              dtassinari commented
              Editing a comment
              Boiling destroys the toxin, not the spore: and the spore is free to wake up and create more toxin as soon as that temperature drops (unless it's kept in check with acid). (More following...)

            • dtassinari
              dtassinari commented
              Editing a comment
              If you take your unsafe canned food and re-boil it thoroughly when you open it, you might be ok. But can you trust whoever opens that jar to understand that the food in there needs to be at least simmered, and possibly for quite a while in order to get big chinks to an IT of 85 C / 185 F or higher?

            #9
            I'm telling you--DO NOT PROCESS LOW ACIDS FOODS IN A BOILING WATER BATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use a pressure canner and follow approved recipes. Meathead, Huskee, Jerod Broussard

            Edit add-on: The Ball Blue Book" is a reliable source of canning information. USE IT!
            Last edited by Willy; July 17, 2017, 08:13 PM.

            Comment


              #10
              I don't can, don't care much for canned foods....but I've learned something here. Trust our in-house experts, and thank you all for sharing your advisories! You could probably walk across a busy street blindfolded and not get killed, maybe even repeatedly, but that hardly means it's safe...don't risk it!

              Comment


              • HouseHomey
                HouseHomey commented
                Editing a comment
                yea EXACTLY

              #11
              Tell ya buddy. Death and me don't get along very well! LOL. I do a bit of canning, but you really have to be very careful with meats and such, not that it can't be done, it's done everyday actually. Hormel, Ditty More, Wolf Brand, only thing that was hurt was my taste buds and I still buy these products because it taste like supper.

              I have an All-American 21.5 qt pressure canner I use quite often. It wasn't really cheap either, but it's safe for what you are trying to do. Personally I don't do much water bath stuff at all except bread and butter pickles or tomato sauce. Boiling temps don't cut the mustard for meat. You need pressure! Lot's of great data out there for safe temps to can your meats. Down here in hurricane land, the Moonbeam and I kinda go overboard at times. I'm not a prepper really I don't think... But I like to eat!

              Comment


              • EdF
                EdF commented
                Editing a comment
                I can't remember the last time we used a water bath. But then again, I can barely remember the last time we canned anything!

              #12
              docblonder calling anyone with a PhD or more credibility then me or the Above. dtassinari you are a beast! my handsome twin brother. Nailed it!!!

              Comment


                #13
                "Low acid - high water activity" you best have a Log12 reduction procedure.

                Comment


                • Willy
                  Willy commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Translation??????????????????

                #14
                Yes! I'm not an expert and I don't play one on the internet, so by all means let's hear from someone who really knows what they're saying. Take everything I (or anyone else without real expertise) say with your usual half tsp of kosher salt per pound

                I feel fairly confident when I give advice that can be summed up as "don't do X because it's dangerous". Worst case scenario if I'm wrong is that you're missing out but still safe.

                As for boiled cans being fridge safe, I'd love a reality check. CurlingDog , something else worth considering if you decide to go down that route: is the fridge reliable? Does it have a digital panel that can be set to a real temperature that's measured with a probe, or is it an old model with a "colder-less cold" dial with no feedback mechanism, so you have no real idea how cold the contents really are?

                Is it checked regularly or does it sit in a basement somewhere, where it could blow a fuse and be ignored for weeks? Or worse, in a cabin or a second house? Are there frequent blackouts/brownouts that could leave it too warm for too long? Will the canned food be stored in the door panel, which is usually warmer?

                Comment


                  #15
                  This is heavy. After reading this thread I'm not canning anything. I wasn't about to can or intended to ever can. So now I'm really not going to do it.

                  Comment

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