Sodium Nitrite and Oxygen?

[cklindt]

It has been proven by Dr. Blonder that using vacuum does not aid in flavor penetration of the meat surface of large molecules like sugar. Using dye tests.


I think that I figured out where the lore came from.

In commercial operation, making formed meat products like ham and other meat that there was color loss of the meat in a vacuum tumbler. These meats are cubed and not ground.

The loss of color was due to oxygen in air was not reacting with the meat surface.

Using a vacuum tumbler reduced color loss but created a problem due to reduced oxygen. Sodium Nitrite did not react in the cure. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) was added to the cure to force the Sodium Nitrite to produce more Nitric Oxide.

Someone at home misinterpreted the process thinking penetration not color.

Vacuum sealer companies didn't help with selling vacuum marinade units but added to sales.

This leads me reconsider sealed vacuum bags with cure like Cured Corned Beef Brisket? Sous Vide also?

Without air, the Cure #1 will not react to Nitrite Oxide. This might lead to high Sodium Nitrite in the meat even when cooking. This would still lead to the pink color due to cooking heat.

Is my theory correct?

Thanks,
Chris

[RonB]

This is above my pay grade, but I will be watching.

[EdF]

;-) . Me too!

[Cheef]

Above my pay grade also. BUT!! I will say I have used a vacuum tumbler for years and swear by it. Is what it is, and my mind is made up by my own and my families taste buds, and I am definitely the type who would toss it if it didn't work and work well.

[Potkettleblack]

http://sousvideresources.com/2017/07/30/syzygizing-sous-vide-with-basic-meat-curing/

Typically, Prague powder comprises no more than .25% of the weight of the meat. Salt, itself, comprises somewhere between 2% and 3% of the weight of the meat. What this means is that the basic cure by volume, tablespoons, cups, whatever, is:
8 parts salt,
4 parts sugar,
1 part Prague powder.
The simplest application is to energetically apply 1 Tablespoon/lb. of this mixture to cure almost any meat. Use gloves and make sure every square millimeter is exposed. This can be used to make bacon, corned beef, city ham, any number of simple cured products. It can be used to make sausage, but there is no wait–the effect is instantaneous. Otherwise, dry curing should be allowed at least 5 days/inch from surface to center to fully penetrate, and the meat should be flipped and moved around periodically.
Simple sugars can penetrate the muscle, but, extremely slowly, and serve mostly to disperse the salt evenly over the surface of the meat during application. As you can see, the amount of Sodium Nitrite used is miniscule. Prague powder also has a tiny bit of pink dye so that it is not confused with table salt.
Once the curing is done, the meat is ready for sous vide processing. Things like pastrami that have rubs should be sv processed first, and then rubbed so you can smoke pastrami, etc. Rubs in the bag dissolve into the purge, and cannot penetrate the meat. Individual recipes tell you how to create the crust, pellicle, bark, etc.

[Potkettleblack]

Of course ChefSteps and Norm King are frequently at odds:

https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/nine-day-homemade-corned-beef

Submerge brisket in the brine and place it in the refrigerator.

Allow brisket to brine for 7–10 days. To get the gorgeous pink color we want from corned beef, it’s key that the brine permeates all the way through the meat. If you’re a seasoned briner (see what we did there?), you can cut into the meat and monitor the color, but 10 days should definitely do the trick.

Actually, I see the way through. Both advise cure and then sous, though Norm considers things where you may want to cook and then rub, as pastrami (If I were doing it from scratch, I would brine, smoke, sous, rub and smoke.

[Potkettleblack]

I guess I'm not clear on the problem.
You're not curing under temp in sous vide. You are curing for some period of time to get penetration of the salts, including nitrites and nitrates. You are then processing sous vide. I know it works, because I made a ridiculous smoke ring brisket in the brine and sous vide. Like the flat was ALL smoke ring from the tip to about midway deep. About half inch of penetration.

I also see a bit of problem in the logic. Sugar molecules are larger than salt molecules. This is why we dry brine. Salt and sugar will both penetrate, but they take a loooong time to do so, as in the Sousvideresources link above.

[cklindt]

Thanks to all of that replied.

I have used curing brines before but never under a vacuum such as a vacuumed bag .

Will the Sodium Nitrite react to Nitric Oxide, in the meat, even in the presents of bacteria without oxygen?

Thanks,
Chris

[cklindt]

Professor Blonder would be the "Science Guy" on this forum.

Entrance to his main page http://www.genuineideas.com/food.html A lot of good information here!

Start of dye test http://www.genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/dye.html

Sugar penetration test http://www.genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/sugarbrine.html

Sodium Nitrite migration http://www.genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/pastrami.html

Vacuum/Pressure tests http://www.genuineideas.com/Articles...emarinade.html

The links above don't answer my question of how vacuum and Sodium Nitrite work together. If I understand correctly Sodium Nitrite would be added the the vacuum tumbler first with the cubed meat and then Vitamin C would be added later to complete the reaction.

[cklindt]

Found what I was referencing in my book and then found on the web

https://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/formed

Scroll down to Color. This compares a normal tumbler and a vacuum tumbler (effects of Sodium Nitrite and oxygen) and adding Vitamin C to react with the Sodium Nitrite to Nitric Oxide.

Chris

[Potkettleblack]

I notice from this that the meat is cured before being formed into the ham, before being cooked.
I also notice a difference in the color of the loin meat and the leg meat, which they attribute to oxygenation of the muscle producing a deeper curing color.

[Potkettleblack]

They also note that tumbling tends to reduce the color due to extra oxygen, but vacuum tumbling solves that problem. I don't know enough about formed hams to have an opinion. I'm an "off the bone" type consumer of ham.

[Potkettleblack]

Also, docblonder can occasionally be summoned for an opinion.

[Jerod Broussard]

Opinion???

[Potkettleblack]

There are precious few facts in nutritional science. It’s not Dr. Blonder’s fault. He’s a physicist, IIRC.

[docblonder]

Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is added to cured meats that might be seared over high heat. If some of the sodium nitrite from the cure is not absorbed by the meat proteins during brining, the excess nitrite might be converted into nitrosamines by the flame. Nitrosamines are believed to be carcinogenic. Vitamin C converts the Prague Curing salt to nitric oxide, the gas that creates the pink cure color. Basically sopping up all the free sodium nitrite that could be an issue on the grill. Now an FDA requirement for commercial smokers.

At home, its a bad idea to add vitamin C to your curing salts- it may prematurely break apart the nitrite before it kills botulism and other bacteria.

Vacuum (or oxygen) has very little effect on the ability of curing salts to kill bacteria. They carry their own oxygen and do not need access to air. But excess oxygen can prevent the nitric oxide from bonding with the meat, by keeping the myoglobin oxygenated. So it won't turn pink. Typically not much of an issue a few mms below the meat surface, where the meat is oxygen deficient. Or in a liquid brine.