Why is poultry so "toxic"?

[binarypaladin]

If my understanding is correct, the reason I can cook a steak medium-rare and it's still generally safe to consume is that pathogens are pretty much on the surface. Sear the outside and it's all good, even if you're running a bit blue in the middle. Same thing goes for roasts and all things beef. Surface contamination is the reason ground beef doesn't play be the same rules as steaks. It's no longer solid and the surface has been pushed inward.

What makes poultry different? Why can't I treat a chicken breast like a steak? (Not that I am implying I want to have medium rare chicken because... no.) Are the muscle fibers different? Do the pathogens that generally hang around poultry work differently?

Bonus question (and yes, I realize this is the poultry zone): Why does pork operate differently than beef. Is it just the fear of trichinosis which, as a parasite, is definitely more than a surface contaminate or is it also different in some other way?

[FireMan]

Because it tried to get on the other side of the road! 😎

Opportunity presented itself. 🕶

[Troutman]

Oh you’re a funny man

[binarypaladin]

lol

[Spacecase]

If you have the time, this episode of Frontline explains it all. "The Trouble with Chicken" https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/f...-with-chicken/

[binarypaladin]

I'm curious enough that I probably will.

[Larry Grover]

This doesnt answer your question directly but thought I'd share it anyway. It's a quote from Jack Lalanne who was one baddass dude. He had an open challenge...$10,000 to anyone who could keep up with him during his workout (Arnold Schwarzenegger lasted 5 minutes.) Anyway, here is what he had to say about chicken...

"Chickens are some of the world's filthiest creatures. They eat anything. I lived on a ranch as a kid. When the sheep died they'd get maggots. We'd throw the carcasses into the chicken yard, and within 2 hours they'd be down to the bone. The pigs would defacate and the chickens would eat it up! The chicken I eat are organically grown with special care. I know the source of everything I eat. I've never told my stomach I'm a poor man."

[IowaGirl]

Pork used to be treated differently than beef due to fear of trichinosis based on the diet fed to pigs back in the day. Nowadays, pork can be treated the same as beef as far as food safety goes and it's sure a lot tastier if it's not over-cooked to the cardboard stage.

Heck, even when my grandpa was raising purebred Yorkshire hogs in the 60s, we could have cooked pork the same as beef. His and most other farmers' hogs weren't raised on garbage or food refuse. They got fed a grain ration and ran on pasture the same as grandpa's beef cattle did. But old habits die hard, and I grew up on Grandma's dry-as-dust pork chops.

It's my understanding that salmonella is a common pathogen in the digestive system of poultry, and it's near impossible to eradicate salmonella especially the way most poultry is raised nowadays. When fecal matter contaminates the meat, however small the amount, you have to assume the meat is contaminated with salmonella and cook it accordingly.

[treesmacker]

I just gotta say, my Mom cooked pork chops well done, and they were delicious. She would season and bread them, brown them in Crisco, and then slow cook them for I think about an hour in a covered pan. I still try to emulate that occasionally, because it really is good. Also, some of that fat was left on the bone in chops, and we ate that too after it was crisped and rendered. I love to chew on a pork chop bone done that way. Oh, and could she ever make a gravy from the drippings. Mmmm.

[Potkettleblack]

Also, Trich is pretty much eliminated from commodity pork in the US. Be more careful abroad.

Lastly, pork cooked rare is a lot less tasty than beef cooked that way. You could eat it cooked to 129, but you might not want to do so.

[binarypaladin]

Yeah, I like my pork about 10-15ºF more than my beef. (Depends a bit on the cut, but 135-140ºF is about where I really like pork chops.)

[MBMorgan]

If my understanding is correct, the reason I can cook a steak medium-rare and it's still generally safe to consume is that pathogens are pretty much on the surface. Sear the outside and it's all good, even if you're running a bit blue in the middle. Same thing goes for roasts and all things beef. Surface contamination is the reason ground beef doesn't play be the same rules as steaks. It's no longer solid and the surface has been pushed inward.

What makes poultry different? Why can't I treat a chicken breast like a steak? (Not that I am implying I want to have medium rare chicken because... no.) Are the muscle fibers different? Do the pathogens that generally hang around poultry work differently?

Bonus question (and yes, I realize this is the poultry zone): Why does pork operate differently than beef. Is it just the fear of trichinosis which, as a parasite, is definitely more than a surface contaminate or is it also different in some other way?

Poultry flesh and blood is much less acidic than red meat. Pathogens (bacteria) don't do well in an acidic environment but they do VERY well in poultry. Basically, chicken is a walking petri dish with feathers. If you want to cook your chicken to medium rare (shudder) you can do so safely using sous-vide to pasteurize it properly ... and that's about your only option.

Your observations about beef are correct. Unless the meat has been tenderized using a Jaccard, any pathogens will be primarily on cut surfaces ... not inside the meat. FWIW, I routinely serve medium (or even medium rare) burgers ... but only after they've been fully pasteurized in a sous-vide hot tub.

Pork? We boomers were raised to be terrified of pork cooked less than well-done. It's my understanding that in the US, trichinosis has been effectively eliminated in farmed pork. Wild pork, not so much ...

[randy56]

Food safety is always a concern, I have read many article's on it. before joining AR i over cooked every thing. And did not watch or check food temperature at all. Since I cook to these temp's and have not got sick.
145 beef/ Rib eye NY strip, ect.
145 pork chops
185 Butts
165 chicken white meat/ bone less breast
185 chicken bone in dark meat
I think it's a personal preference, taste, moist, and satisfying your mind you have killed bacteria.

[Troutman]

Jerod Broussard Call for....

[binarypaladin]

Poultry flesh and blood is much less acidic than red meat. Pathogens (bacteria) don't do well in an acidic environment but they do VERY well in poultry.

Thank you. I'll look into this more, but this is the sort of thing I was really interested in.

Larry Grover Having worked on a farm, believe me, I know that chickens are dirty. That's one of the things that makes them so great! They eat up everything. Pigs eat a lot of stuff too though. We had a goat die in the middle of the night and woke up to find the pig had forced itself loose and ate the guts. This is one of the grossest things I have ever seen. But, given that they're dirty and the nature of their biology seems to make them better suited to being contaminated. (On top of that, I've seen how chickens are raised commercially. Gross.) +1 for any mention of Jack Lalanne.

[fzxdoc]

If you have the time, this episode of Frontline explains it all. "The Trouble with Chicken" https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/f...-with-chicken/

Well, that is one freakin' frightening program. I thought I had been scared enough from the Consumer Reports article, but this one makes me feel that I'm putting my family at risk every time I cook chicken. And we eat a lot of chicken.

I'm one of the hundreds of thousands who treat chicken and the surfaces chicken touches (eggs and all meats too) like it's coated with kryptonite, but there's a woman on the program who is almost as cautious as I am (she didn't use disposable gloves--I always use gloves to touch any kind of raw meat, and I purchase only pasturized eggs) whose son was hospitalized with one of the worst strains of salmonella.

Depressing, especially when one sees one regulatory government entity pass the problem off onto another. It's every wo(man) for her/himself. I don't know what I'd do if something I handled and cooked made someone in my family or any of my friends sick.

Kathryn

[Jerod Broussard]

First off, the transport from the farm lends itself to cross-contamination. "Only 12% of chickens on a farm prior to transport were positive for Campylobacter, but after transport 56% of the chickens' exteriors were positive for Campylobacter, indicating that transport and holding prior to processing contributes to the high levels of Camplyobacter present post-processing."

Second, the actual process of cutting up chicken parts lends itself to cross-contamination. "A flock positive for Campylobacter entering the processing plant contaminates equipment, with nearly 100% of samples being positive at all stages of processing."

Third, many many many products are injected with a solution. YOU CAN'T ALWAY SEE THE NEEDLE MARKS, especially if the "Non-skin side" of the muscle is hit with the needle. The pieces fall on the belt and some are "upside down." It should be stated on the label, however I don't meet a lot of people that connect "INJECTED" with "COOK TO A 7-LOG-ISH LETHALITY TEMP."

Even if they are not injected, I'm a 165+ internal guy, unless I'm doing a 145 sous vide.

I've inspected chickens (whole birds prior to any microbial treatment) with no gloves. I'd rather go gloveless than have a hole in my glove. I know inspectors who have never worn gloves. It makes the hands smooth from the oils in the fat on the flaps. With that said, I'd rather not touch any raw meat I'm going to cook with my bare hands. I'd rather use a glove and dispose of the glove before touching anything else.


Approximately 6 Salmonella bacteria (yeah, SIX) per serving has been known to get over 220,000 people sick.

Camplyobacter is a persistent little punk and it is pretty difficult to place the blame on Campy. since they aren't the easiest thing to grow in a lab, being micro-aerobic and all.

The processing plants have a TON of "hurdles" in place in order to reduce microbial loads, and they work, but ain't nothin' perfect, and you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of carcasses.

Myself, I wouldn't return or throw away any recalled meat product due to Salmonella or E. coli or Campylobacter for a couple reasons: 1. I know how to handle and cook my meat 2. As far as I'm concerned every piece of meat I've bought at the store has had some contamination.

I would throw away or return anything recalled with respect to extraneous material (glass, metal, wood, plastic) since I can't really cook that stuff away.

[Troutman]

...and that as they say, is the WHOLE story ......

[HouseHomey]

Word!

[hubmacfan]

"First off, the transport from the farm lends itself to cross-contamination."

There are many chicken farms and several processors in my area. Just seeing the chickens transported should be enough to put me off of chicken.

[fzxdoc]

...which is why I won't let kids "help" me cook chicken or eggs, even the pasturized ones, or handle raw meat like many of my friends do. In fact I don't let anyone help me with those food products. It's just me, my disposable gloves, extra strength Lysol or Clorox cleaners and a super hot dishwasher at the end of the process.

Kathryn

[FireMan]

Not to over simplify things, but, it sounds like whole chickens is the safest way to go. Could this be another problem with convenience & pickiness vs an old fashioned way of approaching things.

[Troutman]

The other reason too to pay extra for air dried versus slopping around in the vat full of juices.

[HouseHomey]

I buy most chicken whole. Except wings, that’s a lot of birds for wings. I think everyone should just properly fry in lard and be done with it.

[binarypaladin]

I noticed that too, particularly from the linked documentary. (As it turns out, I pretty much only use whole chickens. They're cheaper and I can make stock with the spines.)

[Spinaker]

Another reason to call them DIRTY BIRDS!!!!!

More of a "Red Meat" type of guy.

[Potkettleblack]

Beef is nutritionally superior anyway.

[binarypaladin]

Yes. And I generally prefer beef and pork. But... it's not great for everything and sometimes I just want chicken! (Especially wings. Lots and lots of wings.)

[Potkettleblack]

Sure, and I probably eat more chiken, despite efforts to reduce chicken and increase beef, but beef fat > chicken fat, and beef protein > chicken protein. And Steak is mighty tasty too.

[binarypaladin]

I get most of my beef and pork from a nearby ranch. (Berkshire pork, at least from this place, is vastly superior to supermarket stuff.) I'd like to source my chickens accordingly, but in no universe am I paying more per pound for chicken than good beef or pork. Ha.

But yeah, as someone who's delved into "paleo" (I detest this term, but it is what it is) I'm definitely aware. Especially the fat and especially from grass-fed cows. Beef fat >>> chicken fat.