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**Huskee** · January 29, 2019, 12:05 AM

It might not matter much for wings since they're so fatty, but lean meats benefit from a hot & fast cook so they don't dry out. The extra time from the low cook temp could dehydrate lean meats. Chicken breast, or whole chickens (w/ breast obviously), or pork loins/loin chops, etc, all seem to benefit from a quicker hotter cook, plus the crisp skin thing.

You certainly can smoke wings lower, this will give them more time in the smoke if that's what you're after. But, yeah, most folks don't like the skin rubbery so the high heat helps with that. Of course, as with most cooking, this isn't' absolute. You might like chicken breast cooked low & slow and wings too. Experiment and find your preference!

**Larry Grover** · January 29, 2019, 01:50 AM

Poultry skin is the primary source of contamination (most other meats skin is removed.) Bacteria can double every 20 minutes, so good luck if you want to cook a Turkey low & slow (although I hear its excellent).

If you want to do it then start hot until it hits the bacterial kill zone of 140 degrees. You can then go low & slow then blast it with high heat at the end to crisp up the skin.

**Jerod Broussard** · January 29, 2019, 02:23 AM

Smoque BBQ does his chickens low and slow then sears. He is however smoking in a convection/rotisserie smoker which speeds things up considerably with all that airflow.

**fzxdoc** · January 29, 2019, 07:20 AM

On my very first PBC cook back in the day, I smoked a chicken following Noah's PBC video exactly. I did not monitor the PBC temp because he didn't. I just let it do its thing. Took 2.5 hours to smoke that chicken. The skin was rubbery, but the meat was deliciously moist and tender, light and dark meat alike. A skin-crisping step would have made the chicken perfect.

For my next PBC chicken cook (and the hundreds of subsequent ones), I used the method I've written about here, dry brining overnight with AP rub, rubbing the skin with a mixture of AP rub and baking powder, placing it uncovered in the fridge overnight, and smoking at 350° or higher. The PBC turns out an excellent moist meat product with that method as well and as a bonus the skin is crispy when the chicken is done.

So, in my experience with my PBC, the moral of the story is: with the PBC, the chicken is beautifully done with either method, and you can get crisp skin either by hot'nfast or in slower cooks if an extra skin-crisping step is taken.

Kathryn

**JeffJ** · January 29, 2019, 08:27 AM

A buddy of mine cooked his Thanksgiving turkey at 200 for several hours in his Green Mountain pellet cooker. He said it came out excellent. The pic he sent me showed that the skin didn't pick up much color. Whilst we all fret about getting that nice mahogany color and crisp skin...I don't actually eat the skin so it's purely a visual thing for me.

**jfmorris** · January 29, 2019, 08:35 AM

Yeah, I'm of the opinion, having done it before, that you can certainly smoke chicken at low and slow temps of 225, but it leads to rubbery skin. I tried it with some wings, that I then fried post smoke, and they were great, but too smokey for my wife. Without that added dip in the deep fryer they were just rubbery and sorta gross, since you eat that skin with wings. With whole chickens, if you don't eat the skin, its just fine. I always cook chicken at 325-350 now though, since joining the pit, and like it much better.

**Troutman** · January 29, 2019, 08:53 AM

I'm of the school of thought that the hybrid method works well for our taste with spatchcocked or whole chickens. I like to roll low and slow and pick up that smokiness then blast it at the end to get that skin crisped up. A lot of it has to do in the preparation, as is mentioned above. It's essential that you let that chicken skin dry out in the refrigerator overnight. I too like the combination of salt brine and baking powder, turns the skin into this kind of translucent, very supple state;

As for wings and cooking pieces separate, I could care less about the smokiness as much as nuking them hot and fast. That's where the Vortex, rotisserie or other high heat methods come in handy .......

Try experimenting, as was mentioned, with various ways of doing it. The dirty little secret about crispy skin is the minute it cools and sits on a serving platter, unless its eaten immediately will turn somewhat soft anyway. Do a search on the chicken channel, there are tons of examples right here to research and choose from. Good Luck !!!

**binarypaladin** · January 29, 2019, 10:14 AM

Wow! I appreciate the input everyone.

A couple of my own notes:

1. I'm no stranger to hybrid methods. I sous-vide, so you pretty much have to. (In fact, sous-vide chicken is pretty darn low'n slow!) And who doesn't love reverse sears?

2. In my own experience, most meat juiciness comes from internal temperatures not going too high. Not to be branded a health heretic or anything, but I tend to aim for lower internal temps on the breast portion. Usually right around 150-155ÂºF. Killing bacteria is a combination of time and temperature, which is why I can sous-vide breasts at 145ÂºF. The meat still cooks once it's off the direct heat anyway. Since I stopped going over 160ÂºF, I've discovered breasts can be delicious with any sort of saucing. who knew?

I saw Huskee comment on dryness and mention pork chops and lean meat. While that seems to be conventional wisdom, both lean meats mentioned also have a history of being cooked to very high internal temps. A nice fatty piece of chuck would be tough if cooked to 160ÂºF in a quick manner, and to get it juicy it takes a LONG time at 225ÂºF (and ends up more than well done, but juiciness is from the connective tissue breakdown rather than the muscle fibers in this case).

It seems that the main thing fueling fast poultry cooks is a combination of crispy skin, fear of drying out the meat, and some bacterial concerns.

I think on my next chickens I'm gonna try out low'n slow as I figure I can achieve a few things:

1. Longer smoke exposure (although you gotta be careful with this).
2. More even cooking (outside should be closer to the inside).
3. The ability to hold at the higher temperature (150-155ÂºF) for longer without drying out the meat. (This seems to go right against conventional wisdom.)

Skins can be crisped either over a grill, a pan, or... I could let the meat cool and, as I suggested initially, blast it back up in a really hot smoker or oven. I'm thinking go high, like 400ÂºF.

Now, as fun as all that sounds, I want to add, it cooking at 325-350ÂºF does the following:

1. Crispy skin and no need to adjust temperatures.
2. Cooks faster.

For pure convenience, it makes total sense. On a weeknight when I come home and make dinner, messing around with hybrid methods and longer cook times just leads to annoyed and hungry children, lol.

And don't get me wrong, had I just salted and dried out the chickens I made originally, they would have been crispy. Even for the sort of rubbery skin (it was only some of it), the smokiness really adds something special to mild birds. I love smoked beef, but the more I play with chicken, the more I'm really loving the addition.

I should cook some birds side-by-side with both methods and have a few friends over to taste test. (I'm sure no one will object.)

**Potkettleblack** · January 29, 2019, 11:01 AM

I did my turkey at 325 on a vertical roaster this thanksgiving, after a day of air drying/dry brining in the fridge (real salt, sage, thyme, lemon peel, sth else), then sage under the skin... I forget if I pricked the skin or not. At any rate, 325 for 2.5 hours or so, had it probed up in both breasts and both thighs because I could), and resulted in what I considered the perfect skin. Some of that is the natural convection action that you get with a Grilla (or any pellet, though I think the shape of the Grilla OG Grilla produces a more pronounced convection effect, but I don't have the gear to prove it).

At any rate, for wings, I would salt, dry, prick the skin (to allow drainage of the fat), arrange for peak convection flow (I believe this to be around the margin of the grill on the grilla... I also think this is why the PBC is a chicken machine... airflow from bottom vent to the bar holes would create a nice convection current over a hung bird... this is also why the Vortex makes the kettle a chicken machine) and run at 325. Running "fan" as the brits call convection, serves to dry the skin a bit, and so you get that crisp skin at a lower temp.

I think you get adequate smoke on the Grilla at that temp, and so likely on any other non-pellet smoker, as poultry doesn't need a heavy smoke. And I think that gets at the core... if you want heavy smoked chicken, maybe you should make pork or buy higher quality chickens that have more chicken flavor...

**klflowers** · January 29, 2019, 11:08 AM

Before I came here, I cooked chickens on the WSM low and slow almost exclusively. The skin was always rubbery, but we just removed it, and a few times I tried removing it and frying it to get some crispy bits to use in salads instead of croutons. Sine I have been here, and especially since getting the kettle/sns combo, I have done hot and fast. The skin usually crisps up, and we like that method a lot better. I think I am going to invest in a vortex next - it looks like just the ticket to even out the cooking.

**Larry Grover** · January 29, 2019, 05:11 PM

If you do the math (doubling of bacteria every 20 minutes between 40-140 degrees) a contaminated chicken can have 40 million critters if roasted for 4 hours.

Not every chicken is contaminated, and yes cooking will often kill them all. Just understand there is a risk.

My "data" comes from an old 'Cooks Country' article. They used to recommend cooking Turkey's at 200 degrees, but they got an angry phone call from the USDA telling them how unsafe that is. The magazine followed up with consultations with microbiologists & the FDA. They were eventually convinced that it was not a good idea.

**binarypaladin** · January 29, 2019, 07:44 PM

Larry Grover I still have a hard time with this because... I can sous-vide a chicken breast at 140ÂºF for a couple of hours and it's safe. In fact, I can sous-vide as low as 131ÂºF and produce safe, albeit really gross textured, chicken as long as I cook it long enough. It was my forays into sous-vide, in fact, that made me far more aware of how time and temperature work together in regards to food safety. Even before that, this article from The Food Lab made me aware of the fact that the reason I traditionally didn't care for chicken breast is because it's almost always overcooked.

Things simply start dying when given adequate time and temperature. If you hit an internal temperature of 165ÂºF, it's all dead.

(Obviously, it's a little different with sous-vide because humidity and evaporation don't have to be taken into account as they would with a traditional dry cook. That's why cold smoking is a pain and pretty much anyone can do sous-vide.)

This document from the USDA (check page 33) has a table showing what is required to get to 7-log₁₀ Lethality. Death starts, according to the USDA at, at 130ÂºF. You just have to hold that temperature for 86 minutes, which would be pretty close to impossible outside of sous-vide. However, even a temperature as low as 145ÂºF, if held for about 5 minutes, is going to produce the same lethality as an instant at around 160ÂºF. If you're cooking a whole or half bird, it keeps cooking even when it comes off the fire. Getting it up to 150ÂºF (what I generally aim for in the deepest part of the breast on a half bird) is enough to make sure I have safe lethality if held for 72 seconds. If you take the bird off the fire at 150ÂºF, internal temperature is gonna gain a few degrees because the outside meat is hotter anyway.

200ÂºF, especially in an inaccurate conventional oven, might be an issue due to the temperature actually not holding at a steady 200ÂºF. I'd be curious to see the actual rebuttals from the USDA and why and the year. If I had to guess, they're saying 200ÂºF is a tad too low to ensure safety coupled with oven inaccuracy and issues with temperature lost from evaporation. 225ÂºF in a smoker is a convection cook though, and slightly hotter at that.

**Larry Grover** · January 30, 2019, 01:29 AM

binarypaladin If I recall correctly the 'Cooks Country' turkey recipe called for 7 hours @ 200 degrees. The toxin C. Perfringens can reach dangerous levels after 6 hours.

In regards to 7-log10 lethality, that means bacteria will be reduced 99.99999%. Thus, in my earlier example of a slow-cooked contaminated chicken with 40 million pathogens 4 will survive. And that's assuming your temperature readings are correct. If you dump a whole turkey in a SV bath until it hits 165 the entire bird will be 165 degrees. Compare that to roasting, where temperatures will be all over the map...perhaps you didnt realize one area near the bone wasn't completely defrosted? Whoops, you didn't probe there and pulled it out.

SV isn't perfect either. It doesn't sterilize, it pasteurizes so food has to be served immediately or chilled quickly to prevent heat tolerant spores from re-generating. Bottom line is if you're 100% sure you're temp is accurate then you can get away with L&S poultry many times but there is that chance. If you want to play it safe then reduce the probabilities. Cook it hot, and if you're braising poultry then brown the skin first.

**binarypaladin** · January 30, 2019, 10:54 AM

Larry Grover a few things:

1. I did note that I understood the difference between sous-vide vs roasting. And to go further, you have to give the meat enough time to hit the target temp as a whole and only from that point on do you start the countdown in terms of killing critters.

2. In terms of temperature accuracy, there's a reason I don't go for the bare minimum. But I am comfortable if I'm reading 150ÂºF on the deepest (or close to) point on the bird. The temperature in a roast is only going to climb a bit more any and hold long enough to be within a statistically safe zone.

3. Even recipes on this site have some poultry being done low'n slow. Again, I'd love to see the rebuttal to Cook's Country because I don't think it's so much low'n slow rather TOO low'n slow in devices that vary wildly in terms of temperature accuracy—and many home cooks who aren't checking internal temperatures. (I'm genuinely curious!)

This might all be for naught anyway. Whole/half chicken is one of the easiest things I cook. I dunno how much I want to make it two steps to get crispy skin and increase the cook time, lol. I'm probably going to post something else on this too because I'm a little confused about the nature of food safety and poultry.

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