So what's the advantage OF kneading for basic breads?

[rickgregory]

So... we all know what no knead technique is. Mix the ingredients, let rise for 12-24 hours, maybe ferment in the fridge for longer, then shape and bake. You can get good to very good results this way and the best thing is it's incredibly easy.

But perhaps you, like I, grew up kneading bread. And I'm wondering... is there any advantage to kneading when we're talking about a basic loaf? By basic, I mean nothing fancy, just flour, salt, yeast of some kind and water. No milk powder, eggs, etc.

For extra credit... thoughts on kneading in a mixer vs manually...

[HouseHomey]

Develop gluten/structure?

allow the other ingredients to tenderize such as sugar??

To mix the thing and incorporate the ingredients??

isnt that where the chew comes from such as focaccia???

[rickgregory]

Yeah sugar etc I could understand. Same with focaccia - there are definitely breads where you have to knead, I think.

But for basic loaves... I'm wondering if there's a reason to knead vs not. No-knead mixes everything and the long rest/rise/ferment develops gluten structure.

In a sense, that's what I'm wondering - if the gluten structure is somehow better or different in one vs the other.

[Elton's BBQ]

Yep! You got it right!

[Dewesq55]

Lower hydration with less open and airy crumb and more tender crumb. I'm sure there are others.

[Thunder77]

+1. With the "no knead" breads the hydration tends to be higher. That is what allows the gluten development without kneading.

[HouseHomey]

That’s all I got. You are way too advanced for me brother. Shoot 👆up there

[radshop]

Exercise? Builds the triceps...

[RonB]

Wheat flour contains two proteins called gliadin and glutenin. When you add water and yeast the two "Gs" have no structure , (not discussing salt because it's not relevant to this discussion). Kneading helps the "Gs" form longer proteins that are called gluten. The gluten is what traps the CO2 produced by yeast eating the sugars in the wheat.
The same thing happens when you let the dough ferment for long periods, but I have not found a no-knead recipe that I like, so I will continue to knead.
Well, I actually don't knead much for the most part now. I usually just do three or four stretch and folds in the first hour instead of kneading, and that accomplishes the same thing with less work, (if you call kneading in a stand mixer work). It's possible to over-knead too. That will cause the dough to lose extensibility which means that the dough has a tendency to spring back to it's original shape when you try and stretch it, (think trying to shape pizza dough). Doing stretch and folds greatly reduces the chance of over-kneading.

[Potkettleblack]

Stretch and fold is basically slow knead, right?

[RonB]

Potkettleblack - yes. Instead of kneading when the dough comes together, I do one stretch and fold, (sometimes two or three depending on how the dough looks), followed by three more at 20 min intervals. It's then ready to put in the fridge for the overnight rise.

[Polarbear777]

I’ve been really happy with recipes I’ve found. I don’t see the knead.

I see it like SV. Less effort but takes much more time and requires planning.

[RonB]

And I bet that it's still much better than what you can buy at your local grocery.

[rickgregory]

Thanks..

Yes, no-knead is much easier, adds some time and gives good results, at least as good as most stuff you can buy at the supermarket.

That said, if I can get better results by adding a little time kneading, I'd do that. But mostly I'm trying to understand the factors that go into good basic breads.

Next up.. kneading in a KA mixer vs by hand. And by hand traditional vs slap & fold.

[Dewesq55]

The Tartine way is just stretch and fold. No slapping involved. Just saying.

[RonB]

Maybe their dough didn't misbehave, so no slapping needed...

[rickgregory]

But maybe the dough likes being slapped... (still reading Tartine. And Reinhart. And Forkish. )

[Pequod]

Per Trevor J. Wilson in his GREAT book "Open Crumb Mastery":

What's really at play here is the matter of time. Even without mixing, flour will gradually absorb available water and turn out gluten if given enough time to do its work. Some methods of mixing rely quite heavily on time to do the work of gluten development for us (No Knead, Tartine, Premixing, etc.). Without enough time (and maybe some folds) the dough never gets the chance to fully establish its gluten. It remains partially undeveloped, or underdeveloped.

[Potkettleblack]

Watching Great British Baking Thing, all bakers on the show knead. Also, reading one of Paul Hollywood's books, they are all kneaded. GBBO is time constrained, so kneading makes sense. Paul Hollywood's book has very few overnight doughs, so again, kneading to speed gluten development vs time for natural gluten development seems to be the deal.

Of course, Forkish pinch and fold mixing, and stretch and fold are just low effort kneads.

[Richard Chrz]

Mixer is a convenience and an "energy saver" per say. With hand fatigue it certainly helps. After making a lot of bread without a mixer, and now making some with a stand mixer and dough hook. I think hand mixing is likely better, and the stand mixer requires more effort in moving dough to and from different dough buckets back and forth. I used one on bread for the first time this weekend. I appreciated it did the work, But, I do not think it did a better job then had I done it by hand in the cambro. I am learning those books are all great for getting you comfortable with ratios, measuring, etc.. but, you can make incredibly great bread without following the book, and making the bread ferment and bake schedule follow your lifestyle and time. I believe the books are trying to get you to have bread in the fastest and "easiest" way possible, yet, making sure you have incredible flavorful bread. I think the no knead part makes it easier, and likely very close to what you would get by hand kneading it. The books would not sell if they made making bread a lot more work. Another thing about Stand mixer, If a book told you also needed to buy a 200-300 dollar stand mixer, they again, would not sell.

[rickgregory]

I don't fully agree on the books point. Tartine, Forkish etc are not just after the fastest and easiest, but they ARE trying to document what they've learned and to make it usable in a home setting. Inevitably that skips over some of the complexities and adjustments that they've learned to make over years of baking.

The key is to read all of the book, not just the recipe and to realize that nothing is 'the gospel'.

[Richard Chrz]

I have read all of Forkish and most of the Bread apprentice, none of Tartine. But, since July I made about 60 loaves according to their books, and about 20 loaves going off what I have learned without opening their books..But, again, these are just my thoughts, not necessarily true by any means.

[rickgregory]

Well the basics of baking bread are well known. It's not *hard* really.. .after all, humans have been baking bread for millennia and once someone knows the rough proportions of ingredients it's not about whether one can make decent bread, it's about refinement and trying to understand what makes bread A good and bread B fantastic.

it's become even easier in the last few decades as we get commercial yeast which gives us repeatability, etc.

[DreamOn]

Generally to knead bread also uses more yeast/ lower rise time which results in a finer crumb/ softer bread.

[ScottyC13]

I’ve read Reinhart’s Whole Wheat and Artisan bread books and enjoyed the reads. One thing that needs more explanation or examples is what the dough structure is supposed to be like before and after kneading or stretching. I am new to bread making and I don’t have enough experience to know what is correct.

I’ve made two whole wheat, one transitional and one white flour loaf with some success. The whole wheat was the least successful and was a bit too crumby. The white and transitional came out better and I kneaded those longer. I also did some stretching per the Artisan book with the Transitional.

So I think that from my experiments kneading or stretching would help build more structure. I do look forward to seeing threads like this discuss technique, because it really helps me learn.

Richard Chrz I also like the pictures you post!

[THE Humble Texan]

Sort of along the same line.... Some years ago the wife want a bread machine so we got her an expensive one that was considered the top of the line. (Name started with a Z). If she went a couple of months without using it the 1st loaf usually turned out to be about 1/3 to 1/2 the normal size and hard. If she used it every week the bread was perfect. Anyone with a machine ever have the same problem and know why the poor results? We have never seen the same result when making bread by hand.

[IowaGirl]

The advantage of kneading? I know kneading can produce the kind of bread I like to eat. The no-knead technique doesn't seem to make bread that meets my expectations.

I want bread with a tender, elastic interior that has few or no large holes. I want bread with a slightly crunchy crust that can be bitten through without lacerating one's gums.

I have yet to see anyone making no-knead bread like this, including myself.

Now that I've kicked the sacred cow, I will go back to keeping my bready thoughts to myself.

[jfmorris]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. To me, kneading increases bread density and eliminates the large voids that develop in no-knead bread.

[coupster]

Here's my method/recipe for no knead sandwich bread. I use a poolish with an overnight ferment, but I'm sure the technique can be modified for a straight no knead dough. I just like the flavor a poolish gives.

Day 1. Mix poolish and refridgerate overnight.
Day 2. Mix poolish with the rest of the bread ingredients - adding a 1 Tbl (or so) of dry milk powder. I find it softens the crumb and crust. (My base is 500 grams of KAF Bread per loaf) Give the mixture 4 sets of turns/folds over the next 20 minutes. Let rise til doubled - 1.5-2 hours. Form into a normal loaf and put in a loaf pan. Preheat oven to 350 and let dough rise for an hour. Bake for 30-35 minutes to an internal temp of 190-195. This is lower than the 200-205 for a classic no knead.

The result is mid way between store bread and a classic no knead. And its the right shape for day to day use.

I bake all of our bread and over the years have played with a lot of recipes and techniques. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that a bread dough is a bread dough, it's how its formed and baked that makes the difference in the end.