Italian 00 flour for sourdough?

[yakima]

We have a close friend who is gluten intolerant as to USA flours. She can handle European flours, and thinks it is because of no glyphosate. But, per me, it may also be due to hi gluten hard winter wheat in US, vs soft winter wheat which is apparently more prevalent in Europe.

I realize that we typically prefer high gluten and protein for sourdough. She can handle AnnA Napoletana TIPO "00" (Italian).

Presumably the lower gluten would enhance the lactobacilli induced taste.

What thinks the collective? Has anyone used 00 flour as a starter?

[Richard Chrz]

It may be due to being under fermented or rather poorly fermented.

I have several customers that buy my bread that had said they could eat European flours, etc and have zero issues eating my bread or pizza dough, because of a longer fermentation, it’s kind of why people buy my bread and pizza.

Longer fermentation allows the amylase enzyme to do a lot of the digesting of starch converting to sugars for the fermentation to clean up. Which starts as soon as water hits the flour. So it’s pre digested in many ways. Does not stop until baked, or way over fermented possibly

p.s. our body releases amylase as well, as soon as it hits our saliva, comes mostly from pancreas I believe.

[yakima]

If you are correct, that has huge implications. There may well be millions of gluten sensitive/intolerant folks here.

[Richard Chrz]

I had a few weeks of poor fermentation in late Feb, early March, I knew it, not bad looking bread necessarily, but I just knew it was not my best. I had a few people report issues to me after eating it. I had to earn their trust again and went deep down my temps and times and notes, cleaning up my schedule, and boom, no issues, I think it even got better flavor etc wise, as I was also told that by several who buy every week.

[Richard Chrz]

P.s. I have made bread with 00

One question may even be do European flours ferment differently, and if so, why?

[RonB]

Richard Chrz - my wife is gluten sensitive, and has given up on wheat products for the most part. And most of the GF products she has tried have been OK at best.

If I understand some of the above comments, a 3 or 4 day ferment might produce "real" bread that she might be able to eat. Am I reading the above correctly?

[Richard Chrz]

Ron, I think fermentation could certainly be a consideration, for several I have met, it has. I think 3 - 4 day is really almost too long on bread, but that is thinking of my percentages of levain, it certainly could and does work in my pizza (72 - 96 hours on pick up days), but, you will need more levain for bulk fermentation in any reasonable time with bread though. If all things being on a basic average 48 is ideal (in my schedule), if over fermented going in though, risk over proofing.

[jfmorris]

I’ve got a daughter who is dealing with gluten/wheat intolerance with her two kids, and is asking me about my sourdough starter as she had read about sourdough causing less issues for folks with these issues.

I’ve been ramping up my feeding schedule and plan to bake her some long-fermented sourdough soon, just to try. Got 5 pizza crusts fermenting in the fridge tonight…

I read a recent article about why some flours produce proper southern style flakey biscuits and some flours do not, and they pointed to the fact that some of the traditional ‘southern’ flour like White Lily use a soft wheat versus a hard wheat like most national brands. My current sourdough is using White Lily bread or all purpose flour, just to try.

[yakima]

Sourdough terminology seems confusing. Fermentation, I believe, refers to proofing. I think there are 3 proofing stages: the starter, the dough, and then proofing the loaf. Levain refers to a 100% hydration starter/culture. I run thru this just to confirm that I am on the same page as those more experienced.

[yakima]

Thank you.
So prooving is the rising of the dough due to action of the yeast in the Levain?
And the yeast ferments, turning starch into sugars, which causes the dough to rise due to release of carbon dioxide? And the gluten forms, creating a structure which retains the gas within the dough? Then, your experience suggests, let the proving reach near a maximum level, so that more of the flour is converted to sugar, thus easing digestion.

Whew!!

[Richard Chrz]

yakima a bit different then that, but maybe later today, or tomorrow I will try to explain at least how I have come to understand it, as processes, rather than steps in a bread baking book. Would it be alright if I moved some of my interpretations of the steps to my bread and pizza post? Can definitely keep it here though too.

[yakima]

Feel free to move content around.
I appreciate your clarifications.
It feels like a combination of no glyphosphate, soft. wheat, and longer fermentation tends to reduce gluten digestive issues. So does that lead to types of flour recommendations? And have you experience with such flours?

[yakima]

Update. 2 items.
1. Finished Richard Chrz' thread journaling his bread explorations. Very interesting, and reflects uncommon dedication.

2. Started an 00 Anna Nepolitano starter from scratch on Tuesday, June 3. Have nice bubbling, but no rise yet; nice smell. Doing this outside most of the time, 103F predicted high today.

The only real thing that I know about sourdough is that it is part chemistry, and part alchemy!

[Richard Chrz]

So, I apologize, I still owe you a response, time got away from me.

I would advise to build your starter for 30 days before using it, or purchasing dehydrated starter from a reputable source. Dehydrated starter is generally ready to go by second feeding.

I will still answer more about your questions, my apologies.

[Richard Chrz]

I answered them in the post, and tagged you. Hopefully it helps, not confuses, but feel free to ask more questions, I have spent a lot of time staring and tasting various fermentation processes. Always happy to help where I can, and if I know how. I have even done a few video chats with a few in here to talk bread or pizza dough,