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EOS vs KBQ?

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  • Anthonyf
    Former Member
    • Oct 2017
    • 30

    EOS vs KBQ?

    How does the BBQ from a good offset like a lang or a horizon compare with food from a KBQ? This is assuming you know how to cook with the offset decently. And how hard is it to learn how to cook on an offset?

    Even though I'm far from getting a stickburner, a guy can dream right?
    Last edited by Anthonyf; November 10, 2017, 05:21 PM.
  • EdF
    EdF
    Club Member
    • Jul 2016
    • 3229
    • Atlantic Highlands, NJ
    • Uuni Pro (new kid in town)
      Karubeque C-60
      Large BGE since 2002 + plate setter + pizza stone + upper grid + stainless paella pan for drippings (the best!)
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      Various other stuff

    #2
    This should be interesting! I wonder how many people here have both. Click image for larger version  Name:	popcorn.gif Views:	1 Size:	2.9 KB ID:	408792

    I have a KBQ and love it; I have no experience with an offset.

    Comment

    • PBCDad
      Club Member
      • Jan 2016
      • 394
      • Seattle area
      • Pit Barrel Cooker - 2015
        22" Kettle + SnS - 2016
        Thermapen - 2016
        Jambo 24x48 offset smoker (Big Tex) - 2017
        Camp Chef Denali griddle - 2018
        Billows and Signals - 2020

      #3
      I am also interested in hearing other's input. I have a Jambo - still waiting to break it in after a crazy summer and insurance issues (I'll post all that once I get it fired up). When I was deciding between it and a KBQ, I made a feature comparison list. Not sure how well this will show up, but I've tried to copy it below. Costs are rough and include estimated shipping.
      KBQ Jambo
      $1,600 $2,900
      Portable 500#, has wheels but likely not portable
      Needs electricity Nothing external needed
      Open fire - spark hazard Enclosed fire
      Components could break down Nothing to break down
      Stainless steel - no rust Painted steel - could rust
      Cooks faster Cooks normal
      Log every 20-30 minutes Log every hour
      960 sq inches 1152 sq inches
      60# of meat capacity 80# of meat capacity
      No learning curve Learning curve but even cook
      Quality construction Quality construction
      Amazing flavor Amazing flavor if mastered
      Easily adjustable smoke amount Not sure how to adjust dirtiness of smoke
      Looks like a dishwasher Looks really cool
      Could grill on top of fire box No grilling ability
      No 'mastery' Mastery, feel like pit master
      Can't leave controller outside, could damage No electronics
      Cook in good weather, sprinkling rain Cook in any weather
      Need grease pan Need grease cup, more work to clean
      Nothing to go wrong in cook Fire management could go wrong
      "Different" cooker Expensive version of what everyone's seen
      Cookbox, firebox stainless steel Have to cover with tarp to avoid rusting
      No work space Stainless Steel workspace in front of cook chamber
      Fire spot comfortable, food is down low Comfortable working height
      Quick startup May need to warm up

      Comment


      • lostclusters
        lostclusters commented
        Editing a comment
        There are YouTube videos of the KBQ cooking in the rain and many KBQ owners here have cooked while it was snowing. So you're cooking in fair weather is out the window, I believe.

      • PBCDad
        PBCDad commented
        Editing a comment
        lostclusters I asked Bill Karau about that and he said it should be fine in a light drizzle but not in a heavy rain. I'm in the Seattle area where heavy rain doesn't happen often but is always a possibility any time of day. No criticism of the KBQ, I was very close to getting one, but for my situation the Jambo was the right choice

      • Spinaker
        Spinaker commented
        Editing a comment
        I cook in snow and rain. If it is raining hard, while not ideal, I simply cover the top of the control box with a stainless pan and keep the lid on the fire box. No problems. lostclusters PBCDad
    • DWCowles
      Founding Member
      • Jul 2014
      • 9703
      • Smiths Grove, Ky
      • Hi, my name is Darrell. I'm an OTR truck driver for over 25 years. During my off time I love doing backyard cooks. I have a 48" Lang Deluxe smoker, Rec-Tec pellet smoker,1 Weber Genesis 330, 1 Weber Performer (blue), 2 Weber kettles (1 black and 1 Copper), 1 26" Weber kettle, a WSM, 8 Maverick Redi Chek thermometers, a PartyQ, 2 SnS, Grill Grates, Cast Iron grates, 1 ThermoPop (orange) and 2 ThermoPens (pink and orange) and planning on adding more cooking accessories. Now I have an Anova sous vide, the Dragon blower and 2 Chef alarms from Thermoworks.

      #4
      I have a Lang 48” deluxe and love it. I have no experience with the KBQ but haven’t heard no complaints about it either.

      Comment

      • PaulstheRibList
        Founding Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 1585
        • Lake Charles, LA
        • Started Low-N-Slow BBQ in 2012. Obviously, it's taken hold (in chronological order:
          1.) A pair of Weber Smokey Mountain 22.5's
          2.) #LilTex, a 22" Expensive Offset Smoker (looks like a Yoder Witicha)
          3.) #WhoDat1, a HUGE Gravity Fed Insulated Cabinet Smoker (cooking chamber 3'x2'x6')
          4.) A Full Size Commercial Dryer/converted to Vertical Smoker.
          5.) Jambo Backyard stickburner (my FAVORITE Pit so far)
          6.) GrillMeister, a huge 24"x48" Adjustable, Charcoal Grill from Pitmaker.com
          7.) 22" Weber Kettle with Slow-N-Sear
          8.) Vault insulated reverse-flow cabinet smoker from Pitmaker
          9.) BarbecueFiretruck...under development
          10.) 26 foot BBQ Vending Trailer equipped with HUGE Myron Mixon 72xc smoker is HERE, Oct 2016!
          11.) Opened www.PaulsRibShackBarbecue.com Food Trailer officially in March 2017
          12.) Austin Smoke Works 500 Gallon Propane Tank Offset Smoker, named "Lucille" as travel pit for PaulsRibShack, Oct 2018.
          12.) Opening Brick & Mortar location at 4800 Nelson Rd, Spring 2019. Had a pair of 1,000 Gallon Austin Smoke Works pits, both in RibShackRed for our new place!

          Fabulous Backlit Thermapens, several Maverick Remote Thermometers (don't use any remotes anymore), Thermoworks Smoke, Other Thermoworks toys, Vacuum sealer, lots and lots of equipment...

          I'm loving using BBQ to make friends and build connections.
          I have #theRibList where I keep a list of new and old friends and whenever I'm cooking, I make 1 to 20 extra and share the joy.

        #5
        Can't wait to hear the responses from folks who have both.

        I have the Jambo, and I would not trade it for any smoker. The Stickburner game is super fun! After you get a Kindling Cracker, and procure some at least partially seasoned wood, you will have clean smoke throughout the entire cook after you use it a few times.

        I've put food smoked on the Jambo against food we smoked on the Gravity Fed Inslulated Cabinet (wood and charcoal, lots of airflow), against the WSM, and against the Pitmaker Vault Cabinet. Method was cook the same meat on both cookers, same rub, pull at same tenderness. Invite people over and have them taste both. DO NOT TELL THEM WHICH IS WHICH!

        Want to guess the results?

        Comment


        • Steve B
          Steve B commented
          Editing a comment
          Of course it’s the stick burner. You just can’t beat that true wood smoke flavor.
          BTW I have a LoneStar Grillz 24X36 offset. For those of you who don’t already know. And wouldn’t trade it for anything except a larger LSG. 😁

        • EdF
          EdF commented
          Editing a comment
          Problem is, the KBQ is a stick-burner from that perspective, so where does it leave you? Unless you add it to the test. ;-)

          That kindling cracker is a very fine tool indeed!

        • PaulstheRibList
          PaulstheRibList commented
          Editing a comment
          EdF, KBQ uses the smoke from the bottom of the fire, and the option of adding in smoke from the top as well. I think it would be an interesting test to compare it to a straight-up offset. Given how much those who use the KBQ love it, and the 5 billion comment long thread, I'm thinking it probably works great!
      • Beefchop
        Charter Member
        • Oct 2014
        • 449
        • Lafayette, LA
        • XL Big Green Egg, Shirley Fabrication 24"x42" Patio Cooker

        #6
        Whichever makes your heart sing loudest. I researched both and the KBQ would have been a more practical choice for me (smaller footprint, price, etc.) but went with an EOS from Shirley because that's what I really wanted.

        Comment

        • Spinaker
          Moderator
          • Nov 2014
          • 10756
          • Land of Tonka
          • John "J R"
            Instagram: JRBowlsby
            Smokin' Hound Que
            Minnesota/ United States of America

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          #7
          Okay......I own a KBQ, but I have to admit.......I still want a true stick burner. The KBQ is an awesome rig and it cranks out some amazing food with little effort. I love every minute of owning it. Since I have pick-up, it's portable. The KBQ also has a great capacity. Not mention you can cook just about anything in it, whether low and slow or Hot and Fast, and it is great to sear on the live fire box.

          That being said, I still badly want a big EOS. I don't know what it is. I can feel this pull to get down to the basics of fire management and really learn a live fire stick burner. The way the true masters of the flame do in all of the old school places, or like my good Pit friends DWCowles does with his Lang or Steve B with his LSG or Huskee with his Yoder. If I had to do it over again and I had had a place for a big EOS at the time, I would have gone with the offset. I know, I know, I know the KBQ is amazing, right? YES, it is! But there is something about that learning curve that I feel I missed out on. I want to play with the fire, I want make sure the smoke is thin-blue, I want to sit out by the pit and learn the little twerks of the EOS. Plus, who wouldn't love having 1,000 lbs of steel in the back yard? Call me old fashioned but I really want and need an EOS, not to replace the KBQ, but to indulge in the art of BBQ on a deeper level.

          I am not saying I am getting rid of my KBQ, I probably never will, but I do wish I had an EOS. Soon, I will have mine and I can't wait to have them both running.

          Comment


          • hoovarmin
            hoovarmin commented
            Editing a comment
            I feel the same way. And I want both a KBQ and a Lang. And a Jambo. And all the others mentioned in this thread. And I want to win the lottery so I can sit in my backyard every day and play with fire and food.

          • PaulstheRibList
            PaulstheRibList commented
            Editing a comment
            #CalloftheFire #StickburnerRightOfPassage

          • Beefchop
            Beefchop commented
            Editing a comment
            This is exactly what I feared would happen to me if I went with the KBQ. I knew that it would produce dynamite BBQ and that I would love it, but in the back of my mind I would still fantasize about an offset. So I bought an offset.
        • Ernest
          Founding Member
          • Jul 2014
          • 3306
          • Dallas, Texas
          • Pit Barrel Cooker AKA The Chicken Whisperer, WSM 14.5 AKA Smokey, WSM 22.5 AKA Big Worm, Weber Performer Platinum. KARUBECUE

          #8
          If I could tow the KBQ I wouldn't be looking for a trailer pit LOL!! I would probably buy a generator

          Comment

        • Anthonyf
          Former Member
          • Oct 2017
          • 30

          #9
          From what I've read here and in other places, it seems like the KBQ is like a cheat code that puts out incredible, top-notch BBQ. For EOS, to unlock that top level of incredible BBQ, you need to really learn how to burn a clean fire and maintain the right temperature.

          While I also want that instant gratification of BBQ perfection right away, I think I'm also allured by the challenge of being able to make incredible BBQ on a traditional EOS.

          I had been searching all over the internet and YouTube on fire management in an EOS and how to burn a clean fire.

          One place said that it is a good idea to pre-burn wood like in another smoker. Then when that wood in the other smoker has caught fire and started burning thin blue smoke, it'd be ready to transfer over to the smoker where you're cooking meat on.

          Another video I saw, the guy was started with lump charcoal in the offset, put a log or two on top and let it burn out that white smoke while placing another log to the side near the fire. That log was far enough that it wouldn't catch on fire but it would pre-heat. So it would be pretty hot and ready to catch fore when he rolled on onto the burning logs and embers.

          That first method seems like it would be able to create the cleanest fire, but I don't know how common that is among people that cook on offsets.

          Would the second method of putting on warm logs still create enough white smoke as to give the meat a bad taste? Or if it does emit some white smoke, what could you do to make it quickly go away? I saw other videos where they keep the fire door open to let the log cat h fire quicker.

          Comment


          • EdF
            EdF commented
            Editing a comment
            My attitude as an old f**k is that if I'm getting the kind of results out of the KBQ that I am, I can forgo the self-discipline of stick burning. Like my saxophone analogy, it's a matter of self-satisfaction. If you're willing to go for that kind of mastery, do it. And enjoy the process - that's really what it's all about - getting into the zone.

          • Spinaker
            Spinaker commented
            Editing a comment
            You nailed it Ed. EdF

          • DSiewert
            DSiewert commented
            Editing a comment
            I just want to make the most amazing food I can for my friends. i want my errors to go undetected by people eating for pleasure. I never want to have to serve food with an apology because it's not the best it could be. The KBQ fit my needs.
        • Huskee
          Administrator
          • May 2014
          • 15304
          • central MI, USA
          • Follow me on Instagram, huskeesbarbecue

            Want a free bottle of whiskey? Check out my link to Flaviar.com, you join with it, we both get a $50 bottle free.

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          #10
          An EOS is a rowboat or a bicycle. The KBQ might be an electric bike or boat with a motor. Sometimes you just want to hear the wind in your ears and not a motor, hear the logs popping instead of a fan. Other times, screw it- let a motor or thermostat & fan do the work! In both cases you get from point A to B with varying levels of satisfaction at the end of the day.

          Comment


          • Beefchop
            Beefchop commented
            Editing a comment
            Good analogy. For me it's like the difference between a digital recording of song in my iPod vs. vintage vinyl of Bob Seger's Live Bullet played on my Technics SL1200. The older I get, the more I love the vinyl.
        • FireMan
          Charter Member
          • Jul 2015
          • 7834
          • Bottom of Winnebago

          #11
          Hey Spinaker, to summarize things, you just want this Big honkin, black steel, tree burnin monster that you grab with your fist to open, whether it be a log ya want to throw in or a big chunk of MEAT to check on. Yeah, you want one & it will be yours. 🌋
          Last edited by FireMan; November 13, 2017, 10:50 PM.

          Comment


          • Spinaker
            Spinaker commented
            Editing a comment
            That about sums it up buddy!
        • Ernest
          Founding Member
          • Jul 2014
          • 3306
          • Dallas, Texas
          • Pit Barrel Cooker AKA The Chicken Whisperer, WSM 14.5 AKA Smokey, WSM 22.5 AKA Big Worm, Weber Performer Platinum. KARUBECUE

          #12
          I came across East Texas smoker company while researching. Seems like more affordable than the big name players.

          I'll stick with KBQ. Maybe after my second KBQ then I'll look into an EOS.

          Comment

          • SteveFromLafayette
            Former Member
            • Dec 2015
            • 118
            • Lafayette, LA

            #13
            I have used both. Give me the EOS anyday.

            Most people don't realize this, but you CAN actually burn a fire that's "too clean". Whaaaaaaa?!?!?!?!?! Did he actually just say that? Why yes, I did.

            Aaron Franklin does a great job of describing this in his book. In the sections where he dives into how he approaches the construction of his new smokers, he explains in detail how he fine-tunes the fireboxes, the smoke-stacks and finally, the seasoning times of his wood piles.

            Regarding the firebox design, he discovered that fireboxes that are not insulated tend to burn through wood very fast. It takes more wood to maintain internal cook chamber temperatures. In other words, they have a very low mpg fuel efficiency rating for his pits. Contrast that with a Jambo. Fully insulated with ceramic wool or something very similar, and an extremely high fuel efficiency rating because the need to add more wood often is greatly reduced. This sounds wonderful in theory! More for less, right? The problem is that you're trapping heat yes, but the lack of constant smoke flowing through the cook chamber ultimately under-smokes your food. Smoke intensity is very subject to the tastes of the person eating, sure. But if Aaron runs the hottest BBQ restaurant in the country as of right now, he must be doing something right. I have tasted his brisket several times. His brisket is everything they say it is. Ultimately Aaron discovered a compromise in firebox design. A "semi-insulated" firebox. A 250 gallon firebox cut in half, with a 24 inch pipe shoved inside and welded together in the front. A sealed air-gap between the two components.

            Now, regarding the smoke-stack design...larger smoke stacks tend to pull harder and stack diameter and length greatly influence the rate of said pulling. Use too large of a stack, and the air and smoke escape the cook chamber too quickly, resulting in quickly cooked food but insufficient color (indicative of smoke intensity). Use too small of a stack diameter and the opposite happens. Foods get great coloring due to smoke lingering around for a longer period of time inside the cook chamber. Stack lengths matter because stacks that are too short won't pull hard enough, and smoke stacks that are too long develop a problem with back pressure. The temperature of the smoke and air are dropping on their way up, and cooler air wants to drop back down, against the pressure of the rising air. Ultimately, you have to strike a balance.

            Lastly, the seasoning level of the wood you utilize matters a lot as well. Green wood burns slowly and creates huge levels of (often bad quality) bitter smoke. Wood that is so old from long periods of seasoning often fully ignite so easily and cleanly that they burn up fast and you are left with pure heat and very small amounts of smoke flavor.

            Ultimately, what does all this nonsense mean? Well, it means that the "perfect" smoke quality could turn out to be a bad thing. It boils down to your personal tastes, really. Sure, the KBQ puts out spectacular food. Much like an iPod, it's clean. It's clinical. It's shiny and polished. Great sound! But.......still not quite the same as seeing the band live. There's just something about stick burning on an EOS that suits many people. It requires skill, patience and attention to detail. I take a lot of pride in the results I've achieved from putting the work in. Are you that type of person? Does it matter to you? That's up to you to decide.
            Last edited by SteveFromLafayette; November 14, 2017, 11:06 PM.

            Comment


            • EdF
              EdF commented
              Editing a comment
              SteveFromLafayette. My apology to you. I was coming off an argument with a colleague, and my leftover anger escaped in your direction. Sorry about that!

            • SteveFromLafayette
              SteveFromLafayette commented
              Editing a comment
              EdF I also apologize to anyone who might have felt attacked from my original post. I can assure you that was not my intention at all. Thanks EdF!

            • Beefchop
              Beefchop commented
              Editing a comment
              I did this with my first cook on my Shirley - burned the wood too fast with too much draw and it lacked smoke flavor and intensity.
          • bbqncigars
            Former Member
            • Jun 2017
            • 53
            • Central Iowa

            #14
            I've run my Klose EOS since '99. One of the first things I did was wrap it with 1" thick ceramic wool with an aluminum flashing exterior. It's almost too insulated. That said, the 'q from both is great. More difference in two cuts of meat that in the respective quality of 'q. The stainless steel wonderpit is definitely easier to run, but it does like its food in bite size pieces compared to the Klose. The former just takes less effort for the same resulting quality meat.

            Comment


            • bbqncigars
              bbqncigars commented
              Editing a comment
              Anthonyf It does have its own little metal roof and shelving around it that keeps most of the weather off. A commercial kit purchased from Sportsmans guide to replace the original lean-to I built. The inside gets thoroughly cleaned every spring. The only exposed steel is the top of the stack and firebox as well as the firebox door. Those get paint touch ups as needed (rarely).

            • Beefchop
              Beefchop commented
              Editing a comment
              bbqncigars Do you wrap the firebox, cook chamber or both?

            • bbqncigars
              bbqncigars commented
              Editing a comment
              Beefchop Both.
          • SteveFromLafayette
            Former Member
            • Dec 2015
            • 118
            • Lafayette, LA

            #15
            Beefchop Agreed. I feel personally that it's very similar to preburning the wood in a separate burn barrel or burn box. Ms. Tootsie (the pitmaster) of Snow's BBQ in Lexington, TX burns her oak logs down to embers and proceeds to shovel them underneath most of her meat (brisket being the exception, smoked indirectly in a repurposed air tank) and while it doesn't taste bad, it's almost as if there's no smoke at all. The smoke ring is there but it barely penetrates the surface. I could understand the desire to do it her way if the wood of your choice was a very strong wood, like mesquite for instance. But post oak? Oak is probably the cleanest burning wood I've ever used.

            Comment

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            Griddle And Deep Fryer In One

            Pit Barrel Cooker Smoker
            The flat top does the burgers and the fryer does the fries. Use the griddle for bacon, eggs, and home fries. Or pancakes, fajitas, grilled cheese, you name it. Why stink up the house deep frying and spatter all over? Do your fried chicken and calamari outside. Blackstone's Rangetop Combo With Deep Fryer does it all!

            Click here to read our detailed review and to order


            The Pit Barrel Cooker May Be Too Easy

            Pit Barrel Cooker Smoker
            The PBC has a rabid cult following for good reason. It is absolutely positively without a doubt the best bargain on a smoker in the world. Period. This baby will cook circles around the cheap offset sideways barrel smokers because temperature control is so much easier.

            Click here to read our detailed review and the raves from people who own them


            The Undisputed Champion!

            thermapen
            The Thermoworks Thermapen MK4 is considered by the pros, and our team, to be the single best instant read thermometer. The MK4 includes features that are common on high-end instruments: automatic backlight and rotating display. Don't accept cheap substitutes.

            Click here to read our comprehensive Platinum Medal review


            Grilla Pellet Smoker proves good things come in small packages

            Grilla pellet smoker
            We always liked Grilla. The small 31.5" x 29.5" footprint makes it ideal for use where BBQ space is limited, as on a condo patio.

            Click here for our review on this unique smoker


            Delta by Nuke,
            Stylish and Affordable
            Gaucho Grill

            Weber Genesis Grill
            Delta by Nuke burns wood or charcoal and comes with an adjustable height grill grate. This Argentinian grill will get your flame on!

            Click here to read our complete review


            Genesis II E-335
            A Versatile Gasser That Does It All!

            Weber Genesis Grill
            Webers Genesis line has long been one of the most popular choices for gas grillers. The new Genesis II E-335 offers solid performance, a sear burner for sizzling heat and an excellent warranty.

            Click here to read our complete review


            GrillGrates Take Gas Grills To The Infrared Zone

            grill grates
            GrillGrates(TM) amplify heat, prevent flareups, make flipping foods easier, kill hotspots, flip over to make a fine griddle, and can be easily rmoved from one grill to another. You can even throw wood chips, pellets, or sawdust between the rails and deliver a quick burst of smoke.

            Click here for more about what makes these grates so special


            Is This Superb Charcoal Grill A Kamado Killer?

            PK 360 grill
            The PK-360, with 360 square inches of cooking space, this rust free, cast aluminum charcoal grill is durable and easy to use. Four-way venting means it's easy to set up for two zone cooking with more control than single vent Kamado grills. It is beautifully designed, completely portable, and much easier to set up for 2-zone cooking than any round kamado.

            Click here to read our detailed review of the PK 360

            Click here to order directly and get an exclusive AmazingRibs.com deal


            Our Favorite Backyard Smoker

            kareubequ bbq smoker

            The amazing Karubecue is the most innovative smoker in the world. The quality of meat from this machine is astonishing. At its crux is a patented firebox that burns logs above the cooking chamber and sucks heat and extremely clean blue smoke into the thermostat controlled oven. It is our favorite smoker, period.

            Click here for our review of this superb smoker


            Masterbuilt MPS 340/G ThermoTemp XL Propane Smoker

            masterbuilt gas smoker
            This is the first propane smoker with a thermostat, making this baby foolproof. Set ThermoTemp's dial from 175? to 350?F and the thermostat inside will adjust the burner just like an indoor kitchen oven. All you need to do is add wood to the tray above the burner to start smokin'.

            Click here to read our detailed review


            Digital Thermometers Are Your Most Valuable Tool And Here's A Great Buy!

            maverick PT55 thermometer
            A good digital thermometer keeps you from serving dry overcooked food or dangerously undercooked food. They are much faster and much more accurate than dial thermometers. YOU NEED ONE!

            Click here to read our complete review


            Track Up To Six Temperatures At Once

            Grilla pellet smoker
            FireBoard Drive 2 is an updated version of a well-received product that sets the standard for performance and functionality in the wireless food thermometer/thermostatic controller class.

            Click here for our review of this unique device


            The Cool Kettle With The Hinged Hood We Always Wanted

            NK-22-Ck Grill
            Napoleon's NK22CK-C Charcoal Kettle Grill puts a few spins on the familiar kettle design. In fact, the hinged lid with a handle on the front, spins in a rotary motion 180 degrees. It's hard to beat a Weber kettle, but Napoleon holds its own and adds some unique features to make the NK22CK-C a viable alternative.

            Click here for more about what makes this grill special


            Finally, A Great Portable Pellet Smoker

            Green Mountain Davey Crockett Grill
            Green Mountain's portable Davy Crockett Pellet Smoker is one mean tailgating and picnic machine. But it's also gaining popularity with people who want to add a small, set it and forget it pellet smoker to their backyard arsenal. And with their WiFi capabilities you can control and monitor Davy Crocket from your smart phone or laptop.

            Click here to read our detailed review and to order