Meathead I have a friend who refills his small tanks regularly. I don’t know how he does it, but he once told me ‘I’m sure it’s not safe.’ Can I have your permission to send your post to him? I don’t know what the rules on this type of thing are.
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So I listened carefully to the DOT warning about refilling here https://youtu.be/g2_GhyAw3vM . Starting at 4:20, "investigators concluded that the explosion was caused by propane gas leaking from a 20 pound barbecue style cylinder was ignited by the open flame of a propane heater's pilot light... She had been using the 20 pound cylinder with a coupler to refill a DOT 39 1 pound cylinder." So this sounds to me like the woman was using the direct connector (which I do not recommend) and it leaked and was ignited by a space heater within a building. This can happen when you attach the smaller tank because the thread to the large tank goes counter clockwise and the thread to the smaller tank is clockwise. Attaching the smaller tank COULD loosen the connection to the larger tank and cause a leak! The explosion was NOT caused by the small tank's failure. As my article says, do it outside and away from flame (cigarette joke). Likewise, I do not recommend trying to cram extra propane into the smaller tank by chilling it or opening the escape valve as some people do.
Has anyone seen or heard of a DOT 39 failing?Last edited by Meathead; March 10, 2022, 12:55 PM.
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I worked as a safety guy at a company that provided LP and here’s my understanding of the issue. Without writing up a thesis on the subject, everything the DOT "certifies" as a vessel for HazMat is subjected to testing to ensure its integrity, even cardboard boxes and when you refill the DOT 39 tanks, you’re going beyond whatever DOT testing has been conducted. It’s a slippery slope but more on the LP supplier side than going after John Q Homeowner
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This is another option. Forget the smaller cylinders and just use this adaptor. It will not work in all cases, but it is handy to have around.
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Our Scout troop has started refilling the 1lb canisters, not because of cost, but because there's no recycling for them and we didn't like how many were going into the landfills.
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Meathead refilling the disposable ones is an extremely common practice. I also own the Flame King tank and the propane stand that came with it for refilling the tank. My feeling is that the seal on the Flame King will wear out the same as the disposable ones. So I suspect there is no real difference in safety. However, if I was in your position I certainly wouldn't be telling people refilling the disposables is a good idea (even if it is).
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I routinely fill my 20 lb tanks for my patio and sauna at my buddies farm. They have a few 3,0000 lbs tanks that I use to refill. I will tell you this........Wear gloves! I know this is mentioned above to but make sure you wear good, thick gloves. Spend the money and get a really good pair of welding gloves. That propane with freeze your skin on contact, before you know it, and it is excruciatingly painful. Grilling, winter gloves or any cloth gloves do not work well, you need something with an insulated, thick barrier between you and the gas. This is why insulated leather gloves work well.
Rant over.
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Spinaker knows this, but pardon me while I ‘Mansplain.’ 😬
For a review of HS physics class:
Compressing gases increases temp. (Heat is molecular/atomic movement, & squeezing the existing movement into a smaller volume increases what you can think of as the density of all those little movements).
Expanding gases does the opposite. All those little agitated movements (heat) get diluted into a larger volume, and their temp drops.
This of course is what’s behind all of your compressors in your fridge/freezer/heat pump, etc.
Highly Recommended First ‘Piece’ on Atoms from Richard Feynman’s 6 Easy Pieces:
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FireMan I’m just poorly paraphrasing Feynman. He definitely makes it all apparent as simple ‘things.’
Here’s an hour well spent, delightful:
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Attjack I am aware that refilling disposable canisters is a common practice and I have never heard of one exploding (although I haven't looked very hard). But the fact remains that the manufacturer recommends you do not refill and that it is against the law. In my world, my life is worth $15 for a legal, sturdier tank.
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Dr. Pepper The reason propane will freeze your skin isn’t necessarily because of expanding gasses. It’s only when liquid is present that it becomes dangerous. As long as both liquid and vapor are present, a substance will follow a pressure temperature relationship. Propane liquid vapor mix at 90 degrees will be around 150 psi. Propane liquid vapor mix at atmospheric pressure will be around -44 degrees. When the pressure rapidly drops to atmospheric pressure, propane rapidly boils at -44 degrees (and absorbs large amounts of heat while boiling). It’s the combination of the low boiling temperature at atmospheric pressure and the large amount of heat absorbed while boiling, that make liquid propane a frostbite hazard and an excellent refrigerant. I’m a refrigeration tech, so I deal with these principles regularly.
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Thanks! So, what I was describing would be appropriate for a compressed gas, but I completely missed the energy of the phase change, from liquid to gas? Is that correct, or am I still missing something?
I love to learn.
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Dr. Pepper You were correct, it’s just that vapor only (no liquid present) expanding won’t have nearly the temperature drop that a liquid vapor combo can have. The liquid boils off (absorbing heat from itself or whatever it’s in contact with) to cool itself to match its saturation temperature at the new pressure. You are correct that the phase change is the key, it’s also the key to refrigeration.
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