PID vs. ORIGINAL CONTROLLER — IS PID REALLY SUPERIOR?

[GirlGrilling]

ORIGINAL TRAEGER CONTROLLER VS. PID — IS THE PID REALLY SUPERIOR?

Hello, Traegers.

I started out on an older-model Traeger which had the original controller, and so of course, there were temperature swings. Nevertheless, it turned out delicious meat with a great smoke flavor. The temp swings never really bothered me, once I adjusted my Smoke to "alarm" only when the range exceeded 75 degrees.

I recently switched to a different grill (RT Bull) with a PID and have noticed significant differences (decline) in smoke quality and smoke flavor, as well as meat tenderness. It might be the pellets I’m using. But the absence of temp swings that comes w/a PID has, at least for me, not turned out to be the bees knees. Wondering if any of you have experienced this or experimented w/original digital vs. PID and compared the results?

Many thanks.

[Nate]

Here is the discussion from a while back... Some folks mention Traeger in there.... also includes info from Candy Sue, the pellet queen, and Doc Blonder.

https://pitmaster.amazingribs.com/forum/pellet-cookers/other-pellet-cookers/502949-pid-vs-non-pid-controller

[GirlGrilling]

Nate, thanks for 2018 thread link that includes your & Doc Blonder’s comments. At this point, I don’t get the lock-step pursuit of PIDs for pellet grills. In my (limited) experience, smoke quality is just not the same w/PID. Billowing white smoke (seen more than a few pics on this site that seem to exalt it) sends me running. Give me less smoke any day, if it’s the RIGHT smoke. But when I switched to PID, it never occurred to me that it would affect smoke quality. Lesson learned.

[GirlGrilling]

Addendum:
H/T to jfmorris, who pointed me to an older thread re PID v. original, where Doc Blonder weighed in. Here’s what Doc Blonder said:
"As to which creates "more or better’ smoke, I don't really know. One issue with the PID controllers is they run the fan slowly during part of the cycle, starving the fuel of air, which makes for a darker and more bitter smoke. But without the PID, a threshold switch lets the fire burn out naturally, which can also be a problem.”

[GolfGeezer]

No engineer hat here, so my comments/observations are based on my own, limited smoking experience. My first pellet smoker was a Camp Chef DLX (2016). Its original controller was non-PID (I believe a Roanoke), with +25/-25* swings and it drove me crazy and the results were very uneven - one time, smokey and tender, another time dry and unremarkable. After a year, I bought a Smoke Daddy PID and upgrade kit (SD makes those primarily for Traegers, but had a mod that fit the Camp Chef). All well and good, temps now held to the +10/-10* range and smoke production was as expected. Low temp settings produced good, clean white smoke that added the flavor profile I expected. Using different pellet flavors (Cherry, Apple, CookinPellets Perfect Mix, Lumberjack 100% Oak) for different meats made a huge difference in smoke profile, smoke ring and flavor.
I now own a MAK 2 Star, which also has it's own, custom PID. Again, very tight temp control with smoke flavor and profile dependent on pellet flavor/mix used and quality/type of food being smoked. Low and slow produce great smoke profiles, while higher temp cooks have less smoke flavor, but both produce excellent, tender tasting food - BUT, very dependent on quality of food being cooked, and using the appropriate test for doneness - probing, instant temp measuring, timing, resting all play their part.

Bottom line to me - I do not think it is PID versus non-PID, but learning your pit and adjusting as needed to get the results you expect. Just sayin'!

[GirlGrilling]

GolfGeezer, thanks. I always cook prime — or Wagyu — when available, which is most of the time. Temp swings on my Traeger never bothered me (that I noticed), so I am hoping the pellets I’ve been using on new RT are the issue. Other than that, the PID v. non-PID variable is all I have to explain the VASTLY different results in smoke quality, smoke flavor, & meat tenderness — hence my inquiry. Thanks again for your response; gives me hope that RecTec pellets are the sole culprit.

[GolfGeezer]

GG - one last idea. I have read that many issues such as what you describe could be the result of poor air flow/restricted air flow. I do not know RT's structure, so not what they provide for potentially improving this. The non-white smoke mentioned in the other thread would seem to indicate something like this - maybe RT can provide some insight.

[Huskee]

I've read someone else say that PID is good if you wnated to bake something, like a pie or something, on your pellet cooker. More steady temps. As you know (I believe we've talked about this in another topic) Grilla is one of the only makers as of this date who offers a controller with both modes, and they say for more smoke use standard mode. So it's known in the industry that as far as pellets are concerned PID is less smokey. You need the swings which produce more smoldering of pellets which produces more smoke therefore more flavor. PID's steadiness results from more fan use and more hotter consistent burn = less smoldering smoke.

[GirlGrilling]

Huskee, didn’t take it that way at all. Only asked if you knew of another maker because I’m looking for some sort of dual controller — where I can go old-fashioned for the first few hours and then switch to PID. The difference between what my Traeger put out vs. my RT is killing me. So disappointing (which is why I’ve pinned my hopes on a pellet change, for the time being).

[Huskee]

GirlGrilling I gotcha. In the meantime there are some workarounds to boost smoke. You could try mesquite pellets, or you could try any pellets that are truly 100% the namesake wood. I know Grilla's cherry pellets are 100%, all others are usually a 60% mix of oak and 40% the namesake. Also helpful is toss in a charcoal briquet on top of the burn pot diffuser, or even a chunk of wood that will fit. Amaz'N Tube are reportedly helpful there too.

[GirlGrilling]

Huskee, yes, used Amazin’ tube on my built-in Genesis many times, to see if I could get what I wanted w/o investing in a pellet grill. It worked well, but not as much as I’d hoped, so I wet my feet w/cheap baby older-model Traeger. It put out great meat, but had an auger feeding problem (I suspect) about 4 hours into every cook, so I switched to RT. Tube works great IF pellets are quality, but it can’t overcome sh*tty pellets in the hopper. Hoping different pellets will remedy my RT issues. Thx

[Troutman]

I started out with a Smoke Daddy built PID controller so I don't have any basis of argument on one versus the other. I just really like having precise temperature control because it takes that variable out of the cooking equation. We strive for it in our indoor ovens, we do the same with fan control on our kettles and smokers, so why re-introduce that variable back into the cooking process?

Having said that, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the complete efficient burning of pellets do not, by the very nature of the process, produce smoke. There is no coal bed per se, so new fuel has to constantly be stoked and consumed by the fans and sped up or slowed down to achieve some degree of consistency. Lack of smoke is the fallout plain and simple. That doesn't mean you don't get the benefits of combustion gases and some near invisible (what we refer to as) blue smoke.

I also don't claim to know anything about Grillas but I'm sure the non-PID option is there for low smoking. I have that option with the PID. It just modulates the fan speed to artificially produce swings in temperatures, thus more smoke. The real problem is the technology versus temperature. That little burn pot, once you get above say 250-275*, just can't keep up with the need to heat up the cook chamber. At above 300* there is really very little opportunity to produce anything remotely resembling visible smoke, it's like a bloody cauldron in there !!.

The debate rages on, but if I want deep smokey flavor I don't use my pellet grill. When I want lighter smoke, like seafood for example, it's perfect. It's one reason why I invested in eight different cookers. I realized early on the short comings of pellet cookers. They just aren't the do all end all cookers they sometimes claim to be. In other words kids, it is what it is, quit stressing over it.

[GirlGrilling]

Troutman, I hear you. Just saying that my older-model non-PID Traeger produced far better smoke and flavor than does my new PID RT (even on RT’s "extreme smoke" setting). The RT smoke — though bountiful in the extreme — simply sucks, to be blunt. I was never expecting anything close to a stick-burner experience, but I was certainly expecting something equivalent to what I was getting on my Traeger and it ain’t happening. So I’ll try a few pellet switches before I give up on RT’s PID.

[W.A.]

Add a ten dollar smoke tube for some more smoke. I have a Rec Tec and it replaces my Weber Genesis. I love it and cook on it almost daily. No one has complained. I weight against Traeger and for the price and what you get in materials it won hands down.

[GirlGrilling]

W.A., that’s exactly what I did, which is why I went w/the RT. Am using a smoke tube, for sure — but ran out of the good stuff and started using the RecTec "bundle" pellets. Disaster. In short, hoping pellets are the culprit; I’ve ordered new batch. Will report back.

[aladdin4d]

With all the talk about controllers I think it's worth mentioning that just because a given controller uses PID doesn't mean all PID controllers are going to behave the same way. You can have a controller that only implements Proportional control (possible) or Proportional plus Integral Action (most likely) or even Proportional plus Derivative (not likely AT ALL but possible) in addition to a controller that implements all three.

PI control is the most common because it's generally easy to tune, does the job well enough and keeps things simple. Derivative sounds great in theory. It can give you more stability, faster response and better overall performance, but tuning Derivative is as much dark art as science and it's very susceptible to noise on the signal line. A little bit of noise can trigger runaway controller output.

Last but not least, any PID controller will suffer from GIGO, Garbage In = Garbage Out with the added complication that one person's garbage is another person's treasure. An enginerd obsessed with precise temperature control may never have considered how temperature precision affects the smoke profile but does that mean PID control is inherently bad or at least not as good? No because a different enginerd that loves Que can program the exact same controller to allow for a greater temperature variance to produce more desirable smoke.

All of this is my really long winded way of saying I think your issue has a lot more to do with how RT tuned their PID algorithm rather than PID vs Non-PID control.

[GirlGrilling]

aladdin4d, Wow. Let my fried brain recover from all that math and science you put out, so I can process what you said — which sounds, intuitively, right on, to me. Not sure I’ve got the gray matter necessary to know how to re-program my PID, but I think you are really onto something here. Would love to know how to re-program my PID to allow for wider temp swings. Thank you.

[GirlGrilling]

JCGrill — fair point. Fair point. Now, if we could only figure out on our own how (if possible) to re-program our PIDs to allow for greater temp swings. Words like "derivative" and "algorithm" strike terror in me; they transport me back to college Calculus, which I totally failed. Those were miserable days, so I tend to shut down. That said, and FWIW coming from a math failure like me, I think you are quite right.

[JCGrill]

GirlGrilling likely in the firmware. I suppose it's possible to hack, but not easy, and likely would void your warranty.

[glitchy]

I owned a Memphis for about 18 months and I’m not sure any cooking device can hold tighter temps than they can, I didn’t notice any less smoke taste from it than my Traeger Texas I had before. One thing I almost always did though was start about every cook but poultry running for about 45 mins to an hour at 180-200 before adjusting upward to my desired cooking temp.

[GirlGrilling]

Interesting suggestion; will try on a pork butt once new pellets arrive. Thanks.