Plastics and food safety

[Mosca]

I started this in Michael_in_TX’s topic, but split it off because it’s a derailer.

Let me make one thing clear: I LOVE the way plastics have simplified daily living. The products have been adopted because they do EXACTLY what they say they’ll do, and that is EXACTLY what we want them to do.

Sounds like just the thing I want touching my food……

I just read several really exhaustive articles about plastics and food. And exhausted is also how I feel about it just about now.

Not that I disagree with the science. But that I feel kind of hopeless about it. I have 50 years or so of depending on plastics for food safety, and now this?

And it seems that the black plastic utensils that I’ve come to depend on for almost EVERYTHING in the kitchen, including my ceramic griddle, are the worst offenders because: 1) They’re made in 3rd world countries with plastics recycled from consumer electronics, containing contaminants from said electronics, and 2) we subsequently use them to cook, heating them up and releasing those contaminants!

But it’s not just that. I rely heavily on plastics for food storage, not just in the freezer, but also leftovers. And of course there’s vacuum sealing, and SOUS VIDE, where we heat the food in plastic bags! And I depend completely on Glad Wrap and the microwave for steaming vegetables, and reheating leftovers!

Most of us are old. Not all of us, but most of us. Those of us who aren’t old are mostly middle aged; I’d bet that less than 1% of The Pit is under 30 years old, and I’d even stretch that to 35. 50 years (what I’ll call “the age of plastics”) is a ridiculously short period in human history. The effects are cumulative, so we won’t see them, and it’s really easy for me to say, “So what?” Because that’s how I feel about it, as I sit here and write.

On the other hand, I don’t doubt the research. I don’t think my white plastic cutting board (I actually think it’s silicone) is leaching plastic into my food, but my black plastic utensils probably are. And while that’s not affecting ME, at my age… and Mrs and I aren’t having any more children… what about MY daughter? She’s using them. And then she’ll have kids… and the effects aren’t immediate, they’re cumulative. They’ll turn up not in the next couple years, but in the next couple generations.

I mean, on the one hand, not my problem. On the other hand, shouldn’t I care? Of course I’m exhausted by this.

So, what can I do? From what I understand, black plastic utensils are different from black silicone utensils. So it should be easy to make that switch. And my parents got along fine with waxed paper. (Side note for all those folks I gave cheese bags to: they work just as well as wrapping the cheese in plastic, which is something I’ve done for 50 years.) I suppose I could switch my leftovers containers to glass; that’s a one-time purchase (but most of those have plastic lids!) My vacuum bags and sous vide bags are all “food quality”, meaning BPA free; there’s some other chemical to look out for now, I’ll have to look into that. I don’t sous vide much, but I probably have close to 100 lbs of proteins in the deep freeze. I might just shrug my shoulders on that one.

So: glass containers, waxed paper, silicone utensils. I think I can do that with minimal disruption of my routine, in the kitchen at least.

Or, I might just shrug my shoulders at all of it. If I do that, though, I’ll do it with my eyes open. But I’ll give it a try first. I probably owe that to the world in some vague, I’m-not-sure-how-but-probably way. Then, if it doesn’t work, I can shrug.

[GolfGeezer]

At the 55 second mark:

Goldfinger Movie CLIP - I Expect you To Die (1964) HD

[Dan Deter]

This is why a few years back we shifted to almost all of our storage bowls being glass (pyrex), and I use wax paper to cover food in the microwave and not plastic. I was hoping to get us away from non-stick, but that was a no-go.

[Finster]

I don't really reheat much in the microwave but when I do, I have stopped doing it in plastic containers*, and usually cover it with a paper towel.

* I do store leftovers in plastic containers, but feel like (perhaps in error) heating is what causes chemicals to leach out of them, and just using them for cold/dry storage is safe 🤷♂️

[Finster]

I think I'm in a similar place as you Mosca.
I do think about these types of things in a general sense, but then in the next instant I revert back to my general mantra of "nobody gets out alive", and think what's the point?

[Mosca]

For example, from the Pit Boss web page. Just because it’s California doesn’t mean it isn’t true. My silicone utensils are already ordered.

[Jfrosty27]

Great. I have the full set of these. 🤦♂️🫤

[Uncle Bob]

That Prop 65 warning (in general, not these specific products) isn't really very informative. Suppliers in many cases put it on there as a CYA even if whatever product has no known carcinogens. Since Calif. is such a large consumer market it a tail wagging the dog thing.

[realdocBBQ]

My perspective as a physician - I practice evidence-based medicine. I go by what we can prove. Sometimes, that's the "preponderance of the evidence".

Nowhere, nohow have I ever seen any convincing real data that has been able to show actual measurement of any kind of plastic molecules in our bodies. I don't believe "microplastics" have been shown to affect anything, if in fact, they actually do exist.

Lotta speculation. Lotta conjecture. Lotta supposition.

Zero evidence of anything.

That's all I know.

Same thing applies to lots of fashionable things in 'health' these days. Lotta people making a lot of money off it. I oughtta get into a functional medicine clinic (with zero evidence) or a hormone therapy lifestyle clinic (i.e., hormones to make you feel good, no matter what). Then I'd be rollin' in it.

[Mosca]

But at the same time, is there a point where it’s just safer to make some concessions at the cost of a little convenience? The FDA says that BPA is safe at a very small exposure level. But if I can avoid it without cost, or if products could be made without using them, is (isn’t?) that “better”?

And if the effects are cumulative, then of course there’s no evidence… but by the time there is evidence, it might be too late, because BPA is basically non-biodegradable!

[realdocBBQ]

Sure, if you want to avoid something like that, I don't see any harm in it, no. Not at all. I see a lot people talking about how the sky is falling a lot of the time, and I've just never been presented any evidence of that.

[Mosca]

I get it, and in large part I live that way too. But that’s also no reason to not look at a bigger picture. If it’s just a change in a few small things, then why not?

[smokenoob]

Thanks Mosca

A quick survey of my “drawer” black plastics shows I could replace a few items at minimal expense and inconvenience.

Unless some really damning evidence comes out on plastic wrap, zip lock bags, and sous vide bags I will continue to use them. The convenience factor is just to high and the risk factor to low or not proven.
(alcohol and potato chips are probably worse for me and I still consume both 😁)

Convenience and life expectancy have increased so much in the last 100 years that I look at it as a “two steps forward one step back” .

[Mosca]

I had a whole ‘nother post I wrote, then deleted, about how all this progress has been downright miraculous; we live in a world that no other generation of humans could imagine, not even those 100 years ago; for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND COUNTLESS GENERATIONS our ancestors lived exactly the same way their ancestors did. We don’t even live the same way our parents did. We all have private phones; after years of no phone at all, my grandparents eventually decided to share a party line.

[captainlee]

I don't have plastic utensils, never liked how they worked so metal it is. I can't tell you how many gallons of water that I drank out of a garden hose as a kid. We've had Teflon pans forever and now the newer versions of non stick. A lifetime of eating foods that were contained in some type of plastic. So far so good on my health. This is kind of like the Radon thing. We live in the Rockies, house built on a grdanite Glacier field and solid granite everywhere. I haven't heard of one instance of anybody here being affected, that includes people born here in this high radon area. I don't think there is a single house here without " excessive "" levels. The only time radon gets treated is when a house is sold and it's above the levels, which is normal here. I remember a few years back how bad coffee was for you, now they say the opposite, being good for your heart. I'm no expert, I'm clueless.

[Mosca]

I love plastics and how easy they’ve made things. And I’m sure you and I have done all those same things. My thoughts are more along the lines of, how easy would it be to make concessions? And, do I want to?

Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer deaths in the US. In perspective, 21,000 people in the US die from lung cancer annually, and 2900 of them never smoked. So out of 335,000,000 people, that’s still pretty small. Given the choice, though, I’ll buy the house with no radon.

[Finster]

Drinking water from the garden hose is why you have a killer immune system. It makes you damn near immortal 👍💪😂

[Purc]

Microplastics and Nanoplastics in Atheromas and Cardiovascular Events | New England Journal of Medicine
I can't help but think if various forms of plastic dissolve but don't biodegrade, where does it go?

[Oak Smoke]

I’m of the school that tries to limit what I worry about. I quit smoking because there’s no doubt it’s bad for me. I quit drinking because it showed it self to be something my body didn’t tolerate well. It triggered AFIB when I drank. We don’t reheat things in plastic. My wife doesn’t drink her coffee from styrofoam cups now. I do still use my ziplock bags. I bought an off brand of vacuum seal bags a while back that released some kind of glue or plastic in the bag and into the SV water. I threw those away. There’s a situation to worry about around every corner. Some of them like plastics appear to have some validity. If you should find yourself in need of a cause here are a few I’ve considered and decided to pass on. Pesticides and herbicides in food, pathogens in the food supply like salmonella or listeria. How about all the things that surround you that are radioactive? They’re everywhere. Concrete, burning propane, most steel, and even those Colman lanterns with the mantels that work so well for camping all produce radiation. There’s not much I can realistically do to check for or eliminate them from my life or yours. I’ll do what I can but worry isn’t on the agenda.

[Mosca]

Oh man, on the alcohol and AFIB. I would get “holiday heart” from 3 drinks. I’m okay now with one, or two if they’re spaced widely apart. But otherwise alcohol is a no-go for me.

[Michael_in_TX]

Thankfully, the effects of plastics and ingested microplastics on our health is the focus of vibrant and rigorous research. Several of my colleagues have gotten NIH grants recently, and not small ones either!

The problem is, of course, right now we simply do not know. These types of studies take time, sometimes decades, to find a statistically significant effect. Studies on people are really hard to do well!

And absolutely, it would be horrendously distressing to learn in twenty years that these things are truly harmful and we've been effectively poisoning ourselves for nearly a century now.

We just don't know yet and uncertainty is frustrating, without question. And it is exceptionally difficult to fully trust industry, especially as things like this were a thing in the not-too-distant past:



For myself personally, I have made some small changes. I've started using glass pyrex more than plastic. I have gotten rid of any plastic bowl that we bought over a decade ago. I also only cook on teflon when I really need to and never above medium heat.

At the end of the day, I am nearly 50. If these things do turn out to be harmful, I've certainly already gotten my requisite dose.

We will see what the future brings.

[Jfrosty27]

Every time I see that ad for Camel cigarettes I am outraged. They knew full well that they were killing people. Both of my parents were killed by cigarettes.

[Mosca]

One of the articles I read also said that any study done on humans would be completely unethical. So the data is going to be statistical rather than experimental.

[klflowers]

I smoked for 45 years. Last night I found a bottle of 12 year Wellers and a bottle of Wellers Black and I bought both of them. I SV regularly. I think there is something out there saying charcoal is bad. I took a low dose aspirin for blood pressure for years until I didn't. I have some flimsy black plastic utensils that I had been looking for an excuse to get rid of; thanks for supplying an excuse. I don't heat much up in the microwave, but when i do i use glass or paper plates. But the paper plates have some kind of waxy surface treatment on them for strength; it is probably affecting my spleen. What is the drawer in the air fryer made from? Or coated with? Probaby something that will make me grow an extra eye.

All of that goes to say I try and take reasonable precautions. But last night I had a McRib, so maybe I am a reckless gambler.

[klflowers]

captainlee only if we can be neighbors again

[smokenoob]

You need a bigger air-frier with a SS grate!
(and pour one for me!)

[klflowers]

Mosca it was the pickles and onions.

[Uncle Bob]

Want to ruin the day of everyone on this board?..............................Cryovac!

[smokenoob]

normally, I wait till 5 PM to have a cocktail, but this thread has convinced me to have my cocktail at 4:30 today! 😁😎👍
(in a grass with purified ice)

[klflowers]

I am right behind you

[Purc]

Me too and I will use my lead crystal cocktail glass because I don't want any plastics in my bourbon.

[Donw]

Purc 😂😂

[smokenoob]

So Joanne brought this home for me when she went shopping today. So I guess this is like getting socks and underwear for Christmas! 😂😁😎