Stickburner query

[Sweaty Paul]

I'm beginning another battle with MCS. I'm kicking around the idea of a stick burner. Not married to any one brand over another. Do think that I'm favoring an offset.
To that end I've seen companies like Lone Star Grillz and Myron Mixon incorporate water into their cook chamber whereas others like Workhorse and Smoke North don't have that ability unless you put a pan in the bottom.

Wondering if those of you who have stick burners use water or not? It would seem to me (the uninitiated) that water might help stabilize a "hot spot" near the firebox while providing some moisture for the cook chamber. I can see why it might be advantageous, however, is it actually advantageous in practice. Another question is what do you wish you knew about your stick burner prior to its purchase and would you do it again?

Thanks all for your advice and time in advance.

Sweaty

[STEbbq]

If you are not already using water for your current cooks, because you see an advantage, why consider water for a stick burner?

[Sweaty Paul]

I've used water when using my PK. I haven't for my Primo, however, I have yet to do a brisket on it. My only thought for water in an offset was to have it near the firebox side of the cooker to maybe decrease the size of the hotspot next to the firebox.

[barelfly]

I can’t help answer your questions but I can help you spend your money

LSG baby!!!!!!!!!

[Oak Smoke]

I’ve seen Matt Pitman of Meatchurch set what looks like a bread pan with water in it in his offset. He puts it on the end nearest the fire box on the grill grate. IMHO you’ll never need a water pan in your kamado. They hold moisture like crazy as is.

[Sweaty Paul]

I've noticed the amount of moisture they retain. The amount of time I spent cleaning the top vent and the extra grease is a testament! ;-)

[realdocBBQ]

I've tried with and without a water pan and never noticed any difference at all.

Any idea what you're looking for in terms of size and/or features?

I'm about 5 hours from you - I've got a 110-gallon uninsulated direct-flow pit on a trailer for sale now that I built, 26x48. This one has more cooking space than an LSG 60".


And I'm kind of at the beginning of a new 125-gallon build, going to be an insulated firebox on a 30x48 or so tank. Building that one out on a yard cart, not a trailer.

If you're interested in anything in particular, I could maybe help out, or could offer some advice on advantages of different styles or features. I'm partial to direct flow offsets moreso than reverse flow, which I don't have any personal experience with.

[Sweaty Paul]

I'm still trying to figure it all out and decide if I'm gonna pull the trigger and try to do the offset thing. I do love your stuff. I do think if I decide to pull the trigger that I definitely want a direct flow v. reverse flow. Also beginning to figure out that a large firebox is dang near as important as a larger chamber too. Trying to understand the intricacies before I take the plunge. Will be happy to visit with you if I decide to "dive in!" (wanted to finish the metaphor).

[Lynn Dollar]

I always have water in my smoker, no matter the type.

Oak Smoke stated the case for water in an offset by saying that his kamado doesn't need any more moisture. That's because kamado's are low air flow, due to being heavily insulated and air tight.

But there will be a lot more air flow in an offset and moisture in the cook chamber helps with the meat getting dry. And I believe on the free part of this site, Meathead and Dr Blonder have provided the science for how moisture helps attract smoke.

The only reason I can see for not putting water in a smoker is cleaning after the smoke, i.e. what to do with the water. It is a PITA.

This is just my opinion, and I cut my teeth on a WSM about 20 something years ago so I don't really know anything but putting water in the cook chamber. Hard to change old ways.

[Sweaty Paul]

Appreciate the insight!

[Steve B]

Water in a stick burner like my LSG 24x36 helps with evening out the temps across the cooking chamber. It works. And it retains moisture in there as well. On longer cooks I always utilize the water for these reasons.

[Lynn Dollar]

And oh yeah, your last question.

" Another question is what do you wish you knew about your stick burner prior to its purchase and would you do it again? "

I knew nothing about my Franklin. I was what called an early adapter. I bought #157 . Nobody knew anything about them.

And yes, I would do it again, though they're considerably more expensive now than the price I paid. For that reason, I'd have to give it serious thought.

My first offset was an Old Country Brazos, that I bought used for $600. I knew nothing about what I was getting into. Wish I'd known a lot more about air flow through an offset. But I cooked on it for four years and sold it for $625 so it was a great pit to learn on.

[Sweaty Paul]

Now that's a win!

[Uncle Bob]

It takes a fair amount of research to work yourself through the offset operational ethos. There's a bunch of mythology mixed with practical application. When/if you think you've worked hard at it, you're just getting started.

For instance, putting water in the bottom of the cook chamber isn't unique to the brands you mentioned. It will work on any offset (of good quality) that has the transfer portal from the fire box to the cook chamber placed so that there is a wall/dam/barrier at the bottom to keep water from running back into the fire box. One of your challenges there is if you don't get to inspect them personally it isn't always easy to see that area to know how it's configured.

Thomas Sowell is credited with saying "There are no solutions, only trade offs." So it is with building and/or operating an offset. Which trade offs are you willing to adapt to, and which ones are a non-starter.....for you? Some offsets have a wide open heat transfer portal which is somewhat traditional. Many have made it work for themselves, but with trade offs. In most cases you lose the first foot or so of main grate working space because there's a significant hot spot. Your 36 inch long grate ends up with about 24" of usable space for example. You might be able to use that space for brief portions of a cook, but not for longer term smoking. You'll often see users try to mitigate that issue with a water pan, a shelf like fixture, or by placing a large wood split at the point where the hot spot diminishes. Those efforts mainly disrupt the air flow and act to "protect" the first in line piece of meat placed on the grate. Those who favor the notion that a water pan provides needed moisture rationalize that application. Others will say that the natural "sweating" of the meat is sufficient to attract smoke, or they will use a spritz bottle if that doesn't appear to be happening. Which trade off is your choice.

More recently, some builders have been resorting to designing a variety of baffles mounted just inside the cook chamber to redirect the air flow from the fire box. Each builder has their own theory on how best to configure this baffle, or scoop as it is sometimes called, some with slots, others with holes, some just solid. The intent is to direct the primary air flow to the top of the cook chamber and create a convective air flow pattern to more evenly distribute heat (and whatever smoke) more evenly across the main cooking grate. Almost all of the builders/users will have a video with a biscuit test showing how relatively even the heat is distributed across the grate. In some they get very close to the fire box end with good results, implying/indicating that the size of the hot spot at that end is reduced giving more usable grate space. In many of these you'll note there is no water pan, and most won't put water in the bottom (as LSG does.....sometimes). I've seen a few well known BBQ joints who utilize backyard sized cookers in addition to their much larger units and nearly all of them don't use a water pan. Who's right? That's your trade off to choose.

[realdocBBQ]

Spot on! As I've said many times - there are many ways to accomplish a particular goal, sometimes it affects how you run things and your process for how and where you cook certain things inside a cooker. I like the vertical baffle and shunting heat to the top for that top-down convection - this means hotter temps on the top shelf, which works great for my style. Some don't even have a top shelf, so it's moot. But loading up the top, can reduce flow to the bottom. It's all a tradeoff.

[Brian_M]

Gotta give a 👍 for a Thomas Sowell quote…

[Sweaty Paul]

First, love the Thomas Sowell quote. He has made me think about a variety of topics differently for sure. I started thinking about it because of how well my Primo holds moisture and cook idea I saw online from Smoking Dad. Additionally, while looking at stick burners I saw that the Myron Nixon cookers always use water. Got me to thinking and asking my colleagues in "The Pit."

[dpearce]

I'm considering an offset smoker from Meadow Creek. They have the option of using water, if you want. Same with their cabinet smokers. Reading through a lot of info on reverse flow, water pan (or not), etc... etc... I have to agree with Uncle Bob it seems the more "options" you have, the more likely you'll be experimenting with it all, deciding what works best for you, and how you like to cook, and if the quality of the result makes you happy.

I kinda like the idea of having the 'option' to experiment, though. Makes it a bit of a challenge and keeps things interesting.

I could really be happy with one of their cabinet smokers, an offset, and one of the chicken cookers. That would pretty much complete my backyard kitchen and allow for most any kind of cook I'd want to do.

The only glitch in my plan is finding that winning lottery ticket...

[jfmorris]

Many years ago I used a reverse flow offset - a pull behind one - that basically built a water pan into the reverse flow diverter. It also included a ball valve for draining it. So basically almost the entire cooking chamber had a water pan below it, except the end where it was open for the smoke/heat to come up and run back to the end with the firebox and the smoke stack. It also had the effect of preventing burned on grease and fat from the drippings. You had to fill it from the hose before the cook, and after the cook you just opened the ball valve to drain, and hosed all the fat/grease water on out of the cooker. Not something you want to do in your yard often though!

Aside from that, on my small offset I tried a few times with a water pan sitting on the cooking grate right by the firebox, but can honestly say I am not sure it did much, and I stopped doing it many years before I gave it to my nephew.

What I will say is that I think water can help stabilize cooks that are near 225F. If you want to run hotter, a big water chamber restricts you, as the steaming off water wants to keep the cook chamber closer to the boiling point of water. So for poultry cooks, where I wanted 300-350, just like with the SNS on a kettle, you want to skip the water.

[Sweaty Paul]

jfmorris, thanks for the insights. My thought was that water would help hold cooks at the 225-250 range and maybe mitigate the hotspot next to the firebox in order to maximize cooking space. I hadn't considered about poultry, although, I know I like my poultry cooks on my Yoder and my Primo to be 375-400.

[mrteddyprincess]

Find a local source of seasoned wood before you buy an offset. You don't want to be buying those tiny bundles of splits from the hardware store.

I have the Lang 48 inch patio deluxe if you have any questions.

Brian

[Sweaty Paul]

I had been checking that out too. Have a supplier a couple hours away and I have a trailer! I may, in fact, holler at you. Thanks for the offer Brian!

[Lynn Dollar]

This water vrs no water discussion comes down to the line Kosmos uses a lot, " you do you " .

I've seen it discussed going back 20 years ago on the The Virtual Weber Bullet forum. At that time, some were replacing water in the WSM water pan with sand. The sand would act as heat sink. For me, its a subject that's worn slick.

It can vary from smoker to smoker. When I bought my Assassin 17 gravity feed, Jeff Conley told me 90% of their customers do not use the included water pan. And after using the smoker, I can easily see why. Its as efficient as a kamado. I still put water in the pan, cause it sits right on top of a heat diffuser plate and I think it moderates some of the radiant heat from the plate.

[TripleB]

I have a back yard Jambo and I use water pans across the bottom of the smoker. I do not use a water pan in my KBQ.

[Santamarina]

Been running a stickburner for over a decade, and I have no plans to change that. The quality of food I get off this thing is unparalleled by any other smoker type that I’ve used.

Water pan…sometimes I use, sometimes I don’t. All depends on what I’m cooking, how long I’m cooking it, and how full my pit is. Don’t let an included water pan be a deal-breaker.

Price/quality. This is one of those subjective areas that’s hard to quantify. I run a COS, and it’s a PITA to keep temps stable while burning clean. I’ve spent years figuring out how mine likes to run, and it’s a source of pride that I can keep it humming along with a small, clean burning fire. Hoping to buy a quality pit in the next year or so. Let me use an analogy to clarify.

In my previous career in music I had a lot of parents ask me about buying a guitar for their child. Two schools of thought are: 1) buy a cheap one, if they give up you haven’t lost much money. 2) buy a more expensive one, the quality and ease of playing will make them stick with it.

…same goes for a stickburner. You’ve got to consider your personality.

Size. Buy bigger than you think you need. I’ve never wished I had a smaller pit, but I’ve often wished I had a bigger one. I’d rather burn more fuel on small cooks and have the capacity to cook for a crowd when needed.

Wood. As others have mentioned, find a good local source for wood. I’m fortunate to have “Fred the wood guy” a few miles from my house. He has big stacks of oak, as well as many varieties of fruitwood. Quality is better and price is lower than buying splits from a big box retailer or online supplier.

[Sweaty Paul]

Santamarina Thank you for the insight. Part of the reason for my question was if water would mitigate space lost next to the firebox. That said, it occurs to me that if there is significant cooking space that is lost because of the firebox then having a bigger pit to make sure I have enough space becomes a more pressing issue.