So the demand on judge is so high that most competitions have a lot of rookie judges. They take a class and no test and are Certified BBQ Judges. A larger part of the time in the class is spent teaching them to be botanists and tell the difference between legal greens and illegal greens and how to spot things like pooling of sauces. Shouldn't judges be focused on one thing and one thing only: The meat? Why are we distracting them with salad judging? Let's have the Table Captains or someone else open the box, decide if they garnishes and presentations are illegal. If they are, the box should never get to the table. This is a simple purely objective matter. Let the judges focus on the subjective: Judging meat! I know of a great cook, a former Team Of The Year winner who was recently disqualified by rookie judges for "pooling" when they were looking at chicken juices, not sauce. This is a travesty! And it is easy to fix. I have raised the topic with several Board of Director members and all I get is "we'll think about it." C'mon folks, you can think about the tough problems. This is a no-brainer. It is an easy fix! Fix it!
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Administrator
- May 2014
- 18451
- Clare, Michigan area
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Follow me on Instagram, huskeesbarbecue
Smokers / Grills- Yoder loaded Wichita offset smoker
- PBC
- Grilla Silverbac pellet grill
- Slow 'N Sear Deluxe Kamado (SnSK)
- Masterbuilt Gravity 560
- Masterbuilt Digital Charcoal Cabinet
- Weber 22" Original Kettle Premium (copper)
- Weber 26" Original Kettle Premium (light blue)
- Weber Jumbo Joe Gold (18.5")
- Weber Smokey Joe Silver (14.5")
- Brinkmann cabinet charcoal smoker (repurposed)
Thermometers- SnS 500 4-probe wireless
- (3) Maverick XR-50 4-probe Wireless Thermometers
- A few straggler Maverick ET-732s
- Maverick ET-735 Bluetooth (in box)
- Smoke X4 by ThermoWorks
- Thermapen MkII, orange & purple
- ThermoPop, yellow, plus a few more in a drawer for gifts
- ThermoWorks ChefAlarm (wife's)
- Morpilot 6-probe wireless
- ThermoWorks Infrared IRK2
- ThermoWorks fridge & freezer therms as well
Accessories- Instant Pot 6qt
- Anova Bluetooth SV
- Kitchen Aide mixer & meat grinder attachment
- Kindling Cracker King (XL)
- a couple BBQ Dragons
- Weber full & half chimneys, Char-Broil Half Time chimney
- Weber grill topper
- Slow 'N Sear Original, XL, and SnS Charcoal Basket (for Jumbo Joe)
- Drip 'N Griddle Pans, 22' Easy Spin Grate, and Elevated Cooking grate, by SnSGrills
- Pittsburgh Digital Moisture Meter
Beverages- Favorite summer beers: Leinenkugels Summer & Grapefruit Shandy, Hamm's, Michelob Ultra Pure Gold
- Fav other beers: Zombie Dust (an IPA by 3 Floyd's Brewing), Austin Bros IPA, DAB, Sam Adams regular, Third Shift amber or Coors Batch 19, Stella Artois
- Fav cheap beers: Pabst, High Life, Hamm's & Stroh's
- Most favorite beer: The one in your fridge
- Wine: Red- big, bold, tannic & peppery- Petite Sirah, Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauv, Sangiovese, Syrah, etc
- Whiskey: Buffalo Trace, E.H. Taylor, Blanton's, Old Forester 1870, Elijah Craig Toasted, Basil Hayden's. Neat please.
- Scotch: Current favorite- The Arran (anything by them), Glenmorangie 12yr Lasanta, sherry cask finished. The Balvenie Double Wood, also like Oban 18yr, and The Glenlivet Nadurra (Oloroso sherry cask finished) among others. Neat please.
About me
Real name: Aaron
Location: Farwell, Michigan- near Clare. (dead center of lower peninsula)
Occupation:- Healthcare- Licensed & Registered Respiratory Therapist (RRT) at MyMichigan Health, a University of Michigan Health System.
Even a rookie judge is trained to know the difference between juices and a what's clearly a puddle of sauce...or at least they should be. You shouldn't disqualify for petty things, and I agree the salad recognition part if it has no place in BBQ judging other than it's there because of tradition so let's keep it. If I were offered the chance to audit and update the rules I certainyl would jump in same as you. And the "don't compare!" stipulation is rather silly. You HAVE to compare. You compare what you're tasting to what you like, that's how you know if you're tasting a 9 or a 5. I've tasted "competition barbecue" that tasted like my mom made it in the oven or a crockpot, just with a mahogany crust. No smoke. I would rate it a 6, because to me this is "average", it is nothing special, but it's certainly not a disqualifier worthty of a 3. But how many rookie judges are able to govern their own choices in this manner? Clearly in the case you mention above not all, sadly. A test should be required to pass the CBJ class, otherwise it's just churning out uneducated judges who paid their money.
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I think a lot of rookies are intimidated and nervous. I hear about this problem with juices being called pooling often. Judges should NOT have to ever DQ an entry. They have one job only: Judge the meat. Focus on that alone.
And I heartily agree on the idiotic "don't compare" rule. It is human nature to compare. It is a contest whose goal is to name a winner. Why not compare? If A is better than B then make sure it scores higher! We can try all we want to be objective but this is not an objective exercise. It is a subjective exercise. Judging, voicing an OPINION is by definition subjective.
I have offered to introduce KCBS to a food scientist whose specialty is product testing. The kind they do in quality control and product development at major corporations. They have not shown an interest.
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It's as easy as taking hunter safety class or a concealed carry class. You take the class, hear the lectures, watch the slides, question and answer, dos and don'ts, do a juding session as you would for real with samples of eac meat, discuss why you'd rate something hi or low, go over the rules, pay your money, you're certified. Like many certification classes.
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Judges can't disqualify. They can bring up a possible violation to the table captain after everybody scores for appearance. The table captain then calls over the KCBS rep and the rep decides if there is a violation. Then directs the judges what to do.
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Founding Member
- Jul 2014
- 52
- Port Huron, MI
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Smoker: El cheapo Brinkman(not ideal but it was free)
Thermometer: Maverick ET-733
Fuel: Kingsford blue bag
Favorite Beer: World Wide Stout(Dogfishhead brewery)
Great topic didn't realize the standards for to become a judge were so loose. I always imagined the process to be more rigorous. I don't know if you've written a full length article on this topic. But I know I for one would be very interested to read it if you ever do.
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That never change a score rule is also stupid. Look, the human sense of smell and taste is not very sensitive. We are not very good at it. There is ample evidence that you like something now and an hour later dislike it. So give the judge all the help he can get. If he goes through eight samples and realizes he scored the first one too high, let him change it. The goal is to get it right.
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Administrator
- May 2014
- 18451
- Clare, Michigan area
-
Follow me on Instagram, huskeesbarbecue
Smokers / Grills- Yoder loaded Wichita offset smoker
- PBC
- Grilla Silverbac pellet grill
- Slow 'N Sear Deluxe Kamado (SnSK)
- Masterbuilt Gravity 560
- Masterbuilt Digital Charcoal Cabinet
- Weber 22" Original Kettle Premium (copper)
- Weber 26" Original Kettle Premium (light blue)
- Weber Jumbo Joe Gold (18.5")
- Weber Smokey Joe Silver (14.5")
- Brinkmann cabinet charcoal smoker (repurposed)
Thermometers- SnS 500 4-probe wireless
- (3) Maverick XR-50 4-probe Wireless Thermometers
- A few straggler Maverick ET-732s
- Maverick ET-735 Bluetooth (in box)
- Smoke X4 by ThermoWorks
- Thermapen MkII, orange & purple
- ThermoPop, yellow, plus a few more in a drawer for gifts
- ThermoWorks ChefAlarm (wife's)
- Morpilot 6-probe wireless
- ThermoWorks Infrared IRK2
- ThermoWorks fridge & freezer therms as well
Accessories- Instant Pot 6qt
- Anova Bluetooth SV
- Kitchen Aide mixer & meat grinder attachment
- Kindling Cracker King (XL)
- a couple BBQ Dragons
- Weber full & half chimneys, Char-Broil Half Time chimney
- Weber grill topper
- Slow 'N Sear Original, XL, and SnS Charcoal Basket (for Jumbo Joe)
- Drip 'N Griddle Pans, 22' Easy Spin Grate, and Elevated Cooking grate, by SnSGrills
- Pittsburgh Digital Moisture Meter
Beverages- Favorite summer beers: Leinenkugels Summer & Grapefruit Shandy, Hamm's, Michelob Ultra Pure Gold
- Fav other beers: Zombie Dust (an IPA by 3 Floyd's Brewing), Austin Bros IPA, DAB, Sam Adams regular, Third Shift amber or Coors Batch 19, Stella Artois
- Fav cheap beers: Pabst, High Life, Hamm's & Stroh's
- Most favorite beer: The one in your fridge
- Wine: Red- big, bold, tannic & peppery- Petite Sirah, Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauv, Sangiovese, Syrah, etc
- Whiskey: Buffalo Trace, E.H. Taylor, Blanton's, Old Forester 1870, Elijah Craig Toasted, Basil Hayden's. Neat please.
- Scotch: Current favorite- The Arran (anything by them), Glenmorangie 12yr Lasanta, sherry cask finished. The Balvenie Double Wood, also like Oban 18yr, and The Glenlivet Nadurra (Oloroso sherry cask finished) among others. Neat please.
About me
Real name: Aaron
Location: Farwell, Michigan- near Clare. (dead center of lower peninsula)
Occupation:- Healthcare- Licensed & Registered Respiratory Therapist (RRT) at MyMichigan Health, a University of Michigan Health System.
Originally posted by Meathead View PostThat never change a score rule is also stupid. Look, the human sense of smell and taste is not very sensitive. We are not very good at it. There is ample evidence that you like something now and an hour later dislike it. So give the judge all the help he can get. If he goes through eight samples and realizes he scored the first one too high, let him change it. The goal is to get it right.
Not sure why they don't see it that way.Last edited by Huskee; July 22, 2014, 08:03 PM.
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New member here & glad to see this discussion. Meathead... as a cbj & tc, I kind of see your point.
Only received my cbj a year ago last March and have judged 21 contests (18 sanctioned + 3 backyard, although 2 of those were kcbs licensed). Another one this coming weekend
I do believe the current process works very well. The cream of the crop always seem to remain at the top. In judging we were taught to score an entry on how well that cook accomplished what they set out to do. Some guessing is in order here, but most times it's pretty obvious. Is the meat still the star of the show or did the process and/or spices/rubs/sauces overpower the star. Was the meat tender and not mushy nor dry. Did the meat, as presented in the box, say to me "Grab Me". One must remember that our scoring scale is based on our individual lifetime bbq experiences. An average score (6) is like something one might see in a restaurant that also serves some bbq (might just be baked with some sauce applied). In the past 15 or 16 months, scores from a single judging table are very close. It's really amazing when that Excellent product comes along and every judges gives it a 9. Of course, it's also the first thing we talk about once released to discuss amongst ourselves.
Have really enjoyed my journey so far. Getting to know and making friends with so many good people, judges and pitmasters alike, has only increased my overall love of this thing they call BBQ.
BobLast edited by Bob Bass; July 21, 2014, 09:21 PM.
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Competition Pitmaster & Moderator
- Jul 2014
- 1983
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Backyard Jambo, T1000 Woodmaster, MAK 2 star, 14" & 22" WSM, 2x 22" Weber Kettle, Stoven, Hot Box Grill, Hasty Bake Ranger, RecTeq Bullseye, GMG Davy Crockett; Original Grilla and others I'm not remembering!
How long would you give a judge to change his score? Would he be able to change it after he tasted all samples? Wouldn't it be comparative judging then? KCBS is not comparative, nor is IBCA. MBN does compare though. I'm not familiar with the other sanctioning bodies out there. I know in KCBS an entry has to grab the judge (in a good way, of course) with one bite.
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It is goofy to deny human nature and ask people to be objective when forming an opinion, which is by definition subjective. Look, food scientists have LONG ago proved that you cannot be objective when judging. There are people who actually study evaluation processes for a living. The people who run the quality control line at Kraft, or the sensory panels at General Mills would laugh out loud at the idea that the judges can somehow not subconsciously compare. Stop the pretense! Ask them to compare and make sure the best sample gets the best score! There are books on the subject. I once published an article co-authored by Dr Harry Lawless of Cornell's Food Science department on Sensory Evaluation in the Journal of the American Society of Testing and Materials. In those days I was the president of the Beverage Testing Institute and I hired Dr. Lawless to help me bring some science to wine, beer, and spirits judging. I have written to KCBS and suggested they hire Dr. Lawless or someone to help them fine tune their methods and take advantage of the HUGE wealth of knowledge out there, but I got no response.
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As an aside, there is a question that I usually ask fellow judges at at contest. Do you cook? I asked half a dozen yesterday at a contest in Virginia. Only one said he did . . . once or twice a year, and that's about the average answer I get. Seems a shame.
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​Not having any experience in competitions or judging, I have to wonder how well someone can judge if they don't cook at all, or can barely grill a burger. From my personal experiences the more I know about cooking methods, ingredients, chemical reactions etc the better I can evaluate what I'm eating. And not only what I taste, but I should expect to taste and see.
Is it possible the experience bar is so low because it's a challenge to find judges?
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