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Humidity control question

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    Humidity control question

    Hey guys - recently joined this forum and blown away with the help and advice on here!

    Thinking of rigging up my Primo XL with accurate humidity and temperature control in a bid to create the most favourable and flexible cooking environment possible.
    We’re a family of electrical and process engineers, so making it happen isn’t a problem, but the real question is:

    In a dream world, what is the perfect cooking environment & process for say a rib roast?

    Thinking something like cook for a few hours at low temp at very high humidity (say 220F, or even 130F, sous vide style), followed by a rapid ramp up (possibly need to take roast out during ramp stage), to a very high temperature at very low humidity, to reverse sear.
    With flexibility of humidity control, I could play around with the humidity profile/setting to achieve a "perfect" result for a particular cook.
    I believe the higher the relative humidity the easier it is to maintain a target temp, so in theory maintaining almost a sousvide type environment could theoretically be possible? (assuming you could get charcoal to behave at that low a temperature)
    But is that actually desirable?
    Any one got any insights in to the science of humidity and temperature in BBQ environment?


    #2
    Welcome benfeng

    Comment


      #3
      This is a very good question due to the variables. I sometimes use a water pan in my Vision Grill. I find the following results - it makes the top vent very difficult to control because it gets gunked up and I also find that the ceramic retains the smell of the wood into the next few cooks. If I am putting some oak or almond chunks in I am generally OK for the next cook. However, if I put a few cherry wood chunks or peach chins in with the coal I will get a cherry or peach wood profile for the next few cooks. It's not a bad thing, just something to think about. You will find a lot of information here - pro and con - about the use of water pans in BBQ. I use them most often in my metal smokers. It is a sin to some and a "must" for others. I am going to be paying special attention to the answers you get regarding folks' experience with water in their Kamado. Thanks for the question.

      Comment


        #4

        First let me just say that this is me speaking from my own PERSONAL experience. I am in no way a Kamado guru, but I have cooked on mine for about 5 years now and have A LOT of cooks under my belt.
        Honestly, I would not worry about the moisture level in your Primo. Here is my thing with adding moisture. Kamados seal well and they also have very little airflow. This means very little moisture actually escapes the cooking chamber.
        I actually prefer a drier environment for smoking. I never add water pans, spritz or add any moisture to my cooks. Then I can build bark faster and thicker. If there is an elevated level of moisture in the cooking chamber, then I find it much tougher to get through the stall or get great bark formation.
        Now why does Aaron Franklin and all the other big dogs add water pans in their rigs? Because they are cooking on huge offsets, whit TONS of airflow. They need the added moisture. Your Kamado doesn't.

        This is just my two cents. I admire the need to tinker and mod. I do it with most of my cookers, including my kamados. (installed inducers for my controllers)

        Oh yeah, and Welcome to The Pit!! Great first question!

        Comment


          #5
          How are you going to achieve precise humidity control? An accurate hygrometer is one thing, but words like "rigging", "humidity control" and references to sous vide make me think that you want to introduce moisture in some way other than a water pan, is that correct? It makes the mad scientist in me very excited to think of an auto misting system inside a smoker, lol.

          I use a water pan. A ridiculously large one. Why? Probably because Meathead suggested I do and I just kept doing it. Also, my smoker is 16 cu ft or so, so I've got a lot of space. It makes sense also that it can help regulate temps to some degree by acting as a heat sink and through the steam carrying heat with it. I think you could have a lot of fun playing with humidity, but if humidity is too high, it seems that you could affect the way the stall plays out. My science might be off, but doesn't seem like evaporation would take place as well in higher humidity, so maybe you plow right through the stall? So many questions, I'm curious what you find.

          Also if the humidity is too high with a low temp, as if trying to replicate the sous vide approach, I think any introduced liquid wound condensate and collect inside the smoker without the heat to carry it up and away.

          I think so much also depends on what you're cooking. If I want a good crust on a pork but, I don't think you're going to get that if the humidity it too high. But if you're just going to sear, maybe you found magic.

          How humid are you thinking? I just hope you don't end up with a steamed roast.

          Comment


          • Spinaker
            Spinaker commented
            Editing a comment
            Steamed roast if always my concern. That is why I keep the water pan out.

          #6
          Thanks guys, much appreciated!

          Yep Mike, the original thought was an auto misting system integrated with a custom-built BBQ Guru controlled by a RaspberryPi. 10" inch touch screen, wifi, all that stuff. Live graphing of temp and humidity, with PID control on the mister to maintain humidity at a pre-determined profile. Data logging of all previous cooks with tasting notes so I can look back on what worked and what didn't work.

          Not sure how high humidity should be: idea it is infinitely adjustable, so I can tweak it ad nauseam, but I suppose what I'm trying to establish first is whether is a variable that's worth playing around with.

          I'm hearing what Spinaker says - the kamado definitely gives a moister result than the old kettle. I spose it's just the stupid ever-fiddling, geeky, "what-are-the-variables-and-how-can-I-control-them-to-get-an-even-better-result" monster inside my head that I can never seem to satisfy!

          Comment


          • Spinaker
            Spinaker commented
            Editing a comment
            LOL. We all have that urge to modify and tinker with our cookers!

          #7
          Welcome to fun and learning! Great question! I know something about electronics and understand that you CAN control temp and humidity. So, I'm intrigued by the possibility. I think, from a scientific view you're opening a new branch of BBQ science. So, it may mean doing many experiments and logging results. Of course that means that you'll get to eat BBQ!

          I am leary of going down to SV temps for a long big time since 1. In SV, you got what you got, bacteria-wise sealed in the bag. And, 2. Water is a better heat conductor than air, so the surface of the meat reaches 130F quickly and stays there. With smoking, that initial bacteria may stay in the rapid reproduction temperature zone longer AND the air flow could introduce new bacteria. These are guesses on my part, no hard data.

          Keep us informed--with pictures!

          Comment


            #8
            Sorry what I should have said, was that I appreciate what Sous Vide can do with increased tenderness and even cooking (at presumably 100% relative humidity), but I really miss the good long smoke that a decent rib roast gets cooking it reverse sear from scratch on the kamado. Searing briefly after sous vide just isn't the same.

            Question is whether I could get the best of both worlds inside the kamado by creating an environment of 100% relative humidity (or very high), at 130F if it was possible, to recreate the Sous Vide principle, while still getting good old bbq flavour at the same time.
            Then I'd drop the humidity to very low (open the lid, take out the roast, pat it dry if need be, crank up the bbq to screaming hot, and sear direct or indirect until IT hits desired target.
            Then apply similar or variation of this to low & slow pork or ribs etc.

            Am I crazy?

            Edit: sorry didn't see your post kmhfive b4 I posted this. Hmm, makes sense. Some more thinking required.....!

            Comment


              #9
              You're either a genius or a madman. We won't know until you try. I encourage you to undertake this experiment asap! Very interesting.

              Comment


                #10
                Welcome to The Pit! I bet docblonder can help with this one.

                Comment


                  #11
                  All commercial smokers control humidity- powers through the stall, reduces weight loss, and in a restaurant a "combi" with high humidity is the best way to hold the meat for service. The tricky issue is not the humidity but how it affects the fire, and thus the smoke flavor. Commercially, the fire/smoke generator is separated from the food chamber, but not in a Primo.

                  I have way too much material posted here:

                  invention, future, greg blonder,BBQ, food science, genuineideas, toys, genes, darwin, growth of internet, venture capital, deep time

                  invention, future, greg blonder,cBBQ, food science, genuineideas, toys, genes, darwin, growth of internet, venture capital, deep time


                  Assuming you are planning on using a digital humidity sensor, they are easily contaminated with smoke and creosote. Cover with a HEPA filter sleeve. And most will not work above 240F. There are tricks to do better, but start simple.

                  Good luck!

                  Comment


                    #12
                    benfeng Huntington Beach welcomes you and your family. I am a simple man. Big meat and a moist chamber. Thinner meat a generally dry chamber. The stall is generally predicable either way for me. Post pics. Good thread. Sounds like good family fun and eating ahead.
                    Good luck sir. I am Looking forward to seeing your cooks.

                    Comment


                      #13
                      Thanks guys, and thanks docblonder for your help. Those links are vv interesting and helpful: answers a lot of questions and assumptions.
                      The plan was to use a wet bulb/dry bulb thermometer rig to measure relative humidity (similar to a timber kiln), because obviously digital has its limitations.

                      Ok to ask you a few questions docblonder ?

                      1. Assuming it's achievable, is controlling humidity in a kamado a worthwhile pursuit? i.e. is it likely to result in a significant improvement in flavour/juiciness/tenderness/texture, etc?
                      2. How do you think the fire would behave at very high humidity?
                      3. Any ideas how humidity levels would impact bark development?

                      Thanks everyone for your comments: blown away by the helpfulness of this joint.

                      Comment


                        #14
                        1. Assuming it's achievable, is controlling humidity in a kamado a worthwhile pursuit? i.e. is it likely to result in a significant improvement in flavour/juiciness/tenderness/texture, etc?

                        Kamodo's are low airflow cookers. Already high humidity. First step is for you to measure the humidity level, and see if there is any room at the top. Wet/dry bulb VERY challenging , you have to rotate the wet bulb fast enough to achieve a 10 mph wind or it sits in a high humidity bubble of its own making. Which is why it is called a "sling psychrometer". A digital sensor, or measure the airflow and weight loss in the water pan and food, or other tricks (I use glycerin and a refractometer in my studies), are better than wet/dry bulb.

                        2. How do you think the fire would behave at very high humidity?

                        Tends to shift towards a little more towards the creosote end, but not bad.


                        3. Any ideas how humidity levels would impact bark development?

                        Less bark, definitely.

                        Comment


                        • hogdog6
                          hogdog6 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          "sling psychrometer". I don't even know what that means but I love it.

                        • Mike Nilsen
                          Mike Nilsen commented
                          Editing a comment
                          And this is another reason I love this site...It's got a Science Officer. Thanks Doc.

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