Existing Joule owners get $75 off the $250 list so $175 net. Not bad but I am not sure what improvements I get from the device versus the new app. It would seem like most improvements are related to the app? The new app is not released yet.
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"In as little as half the time" sounds ... suspicious. -
I'm tempted but I don't need it. I only gave the email a quick read, though.
You can do the same by starting at a higher temp and reducing it after you've added the food, perhaps. The idea is to get the core temp up more quickly. The ideal Delta-T method involves monitoring both the core and surface temperatures and stopping the cook when the core temperature (always lower than the surface temp unless sous-vided forever!) approaches the desired temp by a degree or two.
Although I like Joule's app time/temp convenience, I rarely use it after reading Kosher Dosher's comparisons of several sous vide apps and finding that all of them are not that accurate.
(ETA: here's the link to KD's post about the accuracy of apps: https://kosherdosher.blogspot.com/20...d-you-use.html)
I go by food thickness and size using Jason Logsdon's chart or Doug Baldwin's chart. Both are noted experts in the SV field.
I've been following Kosher Dosher's experiments with the Delta-T approach for a few years now. That's the method that the new Turbo Joule has automated, I'm assuming, unless I've missed something with my quick scan of the email and its link.
I like the $75 off for existing Joule users time-sensitive offer, though.
KathrynLast edited by fzxdoc; May 14, 2023, 02:21 PM.Comment
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They’ve had turbo mode in the app for some time now. I can’t tell if the “new” joule is any different than the original.Comment
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fzxdoc Kathryn,
This is new information for me. Do you have some more direct links on the app comparison, the Delta-T approach (I read about 10-12 different Dosher articles but it is still not clear what he/she is doing), and what kind of time savings you are seeing using those two charts versus the Joule app?
Maybe this is what we use the Combustion wireless probes for finally with SV?Comment
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STEbbq , in addition to the posts by Kosher Dosher testing out the Delta-T method, I became more interested after reading the text of Jason Logsdon's presentation to the International Sous Vide Association conference a few years back. You can find that talk here. Scroll down nearly to the end for a short mention of Delta-T and how it is used in some sous vide appliances.
There is also a really good article by Breville on everything you want to know about Delta-T cooking.
Those articles got me even more interested in using Delta-T methods for sous vide. For that reason, last year I purchased a Thermoworks Smoke sous vide kit to monitor the temperature at the core, but then I unfortunately had an accident and have not followed up on doing my own experiments with Delta-T sous vide cooking.
I don't know about using Combustion probes for SV--are you thinking to seal them somehow for sous vide use? Are they waterproof? You'll have to educate me on that approach, since I've been tempted but have not yet pulled the trigger on getting the Combustion Probe setup.
Anyway, I'm guessing that the Joule Turbo is a Delta-T device with an app that does the work for you as far as setting two (or maybe more?) time/temp cooking regimes for a single cook or by choosing a higher starting temp with the video visuals (always a plus with the Joule app) to convince you that a higher temp than we're accustomed to using is OK.
Kathryn
Edited to add: there's an interesting You Tube interview with Kosher Dosher here. He summarily discusses Delta-T at mile marker 37minutes.Last edited by fzxdoc; May 7, 2023, 06:35 AM.Comment
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fzxdoc Just FYI, Combustion Inc's probe is waterproof - their FAQs state you can even put it in the dishwasher to clean, although they recommend hand washing. Here is what they say about SV:
"The limits of the waterproofing really only show up under pressure. That’s why we don’t recommend using it (for instance) in pressure cookers.
That’s also why sous vide is tricky - the negative pressure created by vacuum sealing could (potentially) distort the seal. We’re testing to be sure it doesn’t." -
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I'm never in a hurry when I'm using SV to cook something, I'm always planning for a matter of hours in the bath anyway. Not sure what benefit there is to getting there faster...Comment
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DaveD , based on his experiments, Kosher Dosher says that Delta-T sous vide cooking has little discernible effect on thinner cuts of meats and fish, like steaks, chops, or filets.
Where Delta-T sous vide cooking shines, apparently, is with larger roasts, he maintains. So I'm wondering why Breville is touting it for steaks in its promo, when it says in its "everything you want to know" article that the difference between sous vide-ing a pork chop Delta-T vs. conventionally is subtle visually but may differ texturally. There is the time savings to consider, though.
Like you, I approach sous vide cooking like I do slow-cooker cooking--I choose it when I am not in a hurry, when I really need to truly set-and-forget and get on with other things, knowing that the window at which I can remove the food is pretty wide for most sous vide cooking.
KathrynComment
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fzxdoc I have a Joule and love how easy the app makes it. Super convenient. So easy to use. Are you saying the time and temps in the app are incorrect? I have not dived into all the theories and just trusted the time/temps set up in the app.
I was always confused when people were keeping a steak in the bath for hours and hours then cooling then reheating then searing. According to the app a 1 inch steak cooks at 129 for 1 hour. I would then pat dry and sear. Couldn't be simpler.
I love the ease of use and the wide margin of error I get if I am running errands or working in the yard. It can stay in the water for an extra hour without issue.
What am I missing? Thanks!Comment
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You may not be missing much, as the proof is in the pudding. I've been searching for that comparison that Kosher Dosher did of various SV unit apps, but can't find it so far. I'll keep looking. I remember being disappointed that Joule scored so low. I thought it would shine. I still like the convenience of using the Joule app, but I often double check it and end up doing my own thing.
Kathryn -
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rickgregory shify Potkettleblack glitchyOriginally posted by fzxdoc View Post
We chatted about sous vide and the Combustion a while back. This would seem to be the potential application.
As GolfGeezer has noted.
Just FYI, Combustion Inc's probe is waterproof - their FAQs state you can even put it in the dishwasher to clean, although they recommend hand washing. Here is what they say about SV:
"The limits of the waterproofing really only show up under pressure. That’s why we don’t recommend using it (for instance) in pressure cookers.
That’s also why sous vide is tricky - the negative pressure created by vacuum sealing could (potentially) distort the seal. We’re testing to be sure it doesn’t."
chefchrisyoung : have you tried the Delta-T method with the water displacement method and the Combustion? Is this what you were thinking with regards to sous vide and the Combustion?
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SV circulators maintain a very narrow temp range already, measuring it with something like the Combustion feels pointless. For smokers where the temp can and does often vary by 10-30F swings, sure. For an SV setup where temps vary by 1-2F... /shrug -
rick - the context here is where you are using a water bath at a higher temp than what you are targetting - the so called delta temp. Because the greater the temperature differential the faster the heat transfer significant time can be saved, but how do you know when the center has reached the target? It would seems like the combustion inc probe would be useful in that context. I only use water displacement at least so far) so I am tempted to try it soon. -
I would think the Archimedes method would be acceptable, but I don't see the point, when the math works already, and it's rare that I just cook something SV to just done anymore. I could see it maybe being useful for scallops, eggs, or other delicates that you don't want to go too far.
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fzxdoc this is super interesting stuff. If you have noticed, the Delta-T approach doesn't make a huge difference for small & thin cuts of meat, it would seem to make a more material differences for larger meats like brisket. Have you ever tried doing brisket or pork butt via Delta-T?
I found this link for prime rib.
And this one for brisket.
Basically, saving 30 minutes on what would be a 1.5 hour steak cook is less interesting than saving a day off a 3-day pork butt/brisket cook.Comment
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Ok, read the first post and this is BS. I suppose this is the Breville influence, but the entire point of SV is to bring the item you're cooking to temp, *evenly*. If I want something to be 135F, I want it all to be 135F, not the outside to be 170F.
If people are too impatient to SV something, use another method.
App recipes usually give the minimum safe time at the temp for the suggested item, correcting for result i.e. one might go longer to tenderize a cut of meat that needs that). For short cook items like a steak it's not going to make much difference if you cook for 75 minutes or 120 minutes. You're not trying to tenderize it by going longer, you simply want to get it to the right temp and have it here for long enough to pasteurize.Originally posted by Old Glory View Post
App recipe 'accuracy' isn't important past that. In fact, one of the advantages of SV is that there's a wide range of times that will give similar results. A steak might be ready in 60 minutes but will likely be just fine at 120 mins too. Which time is 'accurate'? BOTH!Last edited by rickgregory; May 8, 2023, 11:06 AM.Comment
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Yes, and the turbo mode is bringing the item to temp evenly and quickly. The surface of the item is going to be cooler than the water. If your target is 135F and you put it in a 145F water bath, the surface is not instantly made to be 145. The heat gradient ensures it's less. Thus, if you're careful and controlled about it, using hotter water at the beginning will bring the core up to the desired temp more quickly WITHOUT overheating the surface. h2o temp slowly lowers until everything is 135F. -
chefchrisyoung lays it out in his post below:
"The basic insight is that the surface of the food spends most of the time well below the surrounding water temperature. This was actually surprising to me when I first measured how big the effect was (as much as 10C [18F]).....until the surface reaches the target doneness. Hotter bath means faster heat flow into the food"
This allows the core to get up to pasteurizing temperatures more quickly, shortening the required time to be safe. -
Ok I see. I guess it just doesn't matter that much to me for the shorter cooks where this will reduce the time. I don't care if a steak that was going to take 90 minutes from frozen takes 70 minutes and for the truly long cooks (8, 12, 24+ hours) the time saved will be a tiny percentage of the overall time.
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Chiming in here since the original concept for Turbo was something I came up with in 2013 at ChefSteps and hired Douglas Baldwin to start working on it in 2014. Douglas and his colleague Kevin Klonoff spent about the next four years working out the math that makes it work. It was actually ready for release in 2019 when we sold ChefSteps and Joule to the Breville corporation. I have been uninvolved since that time, so I can't explain why Turbo has been delayed until now. But my general understanding is that the underlying algorithms have not changed since 2019.
First, Turbo is not quite delta T cooking. The basic insight is that the surface of the food spends most of the time well below the surrounding water temperature. This was actually surprising to me when I first measured how big the effect was (as much as 10C), but the implication is that you can actually speed cooking of tender cuts a lot with zero penalty of overcooking if you heat the water bath as hot as possible until the surface reaches the target doneness. Hotter bath means faster heat flow into the food. In practice, you can cut cooking times 50% to 60% for something like a thick steak.
The trick is that as the food heats up, the surface starts to get closer to the bath temperature, so the trick with Turbo is to know when you need to start turning the bath back down to your target doneness. Doing this requires forecasting how quickly the bath will cool back down once you stop heating it. In turn, this depends on how big the bath is, how much surface area it has, how hot is the water, how much mass of food is in the bath, etc. Despite all of this complexity, it turns out that you can make a pretty good estimate of how things will change by paying very careful attention to how the bath responds when it's heating up.
I'm well aware a lot of folks aren't in a rush when cooking sous vide, but a lot of Joule owners used it on weeknights. And user research showed that the speed of sous vide being slow was a major barrier to more people using it more often. Hence the reason we invented Turbo.
Ironically, the need for nearly all of this really fancy math goes away if you just measure the surface temperature of the food while it cooks, and adjust things to get the surface up to the target temperature as fast as possible. This was a big part of why I built the Combustion Predictive Thermometer to be able to automatically locate the surface and measure its temperature. The idea goes beyond sous vide: you can crank you oven or smoker up way hotter initially to get the surface up to the target temperature quickly, and then drop the temperature to hold the surface steady at the desired doneness. Doing this lets you get a sous vide-like result without the packaging or water bath.Comment
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Chris - are you now confirming the Combustion will perform ok in a sous vide bath now? You've tested to be sure? Love the product BTW! -
Steve, I am 98% sure you can use Combustion in Sous Vide as long as you use water displacement rather than vacuum seal. Given the wonders of Combustion that's not much of a compromise.
Chris, thanks for the explanation. What you describe near the end has some really good implications - slow roasting without the slow so to speak. Changing the cooking temperature mid cook will give your algorithms a run for their money!
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