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Chuck a bust - ideas?

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    #16
    Thanks Potkettleblack. I put a chuck on last night so it was already on for 12 hours before I read your comment. It is now in an ice bath. I'll smoke it and bring it up to temp for supper. I cooked it at 150 degrees. Pics and results to follow.

    Question, (And everyone else please chime in):

    The Anova website has Kenji Lopez's recipe for brisket as 155 degrees for 24-36 hours. Their recipe for smoked chuck is 165 for 18 hours. Based on my experience and everyone else's here, that is way too long. Why do you think that is? I was thinking it might be because I cooked such a small piece of meat (2 pounds) but that doesn't seem to be what you and others have found. One of the draws to SV for me is set it and forget it cooking. I thought I could just follow the recipe and relax. This doesn't seem to be the case.

    Next up, 135 for 48 hours.

    On cooking nekked. This is the first I have heard of that option. I am off to read up on Norm King.

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      #17
      Norm is the administrator of a private Facebook group who is working on publishing a cookbook. He's been doing SV a lot longer and broader than Kenji. Brisket is not chuck. So Brisket process doesn't necessarily apply.

      Norm never does SV on a protein, even for Sous B Cue over 140. I'm probably gonna start messing with that this fall/winter, going over 140 in the SV.

      There are are more variables in these things than most folks want to admit. Beef is a seasonal agricultural product. There is a lot of variation from animal to animal.

      Comment


      • binarypaladin
        binarypaladin commented
        Editing a comment
        If you sous-vide that low, do you have any idea how that affects the stall? I've used 165ºF a few times in SV figuring I could get the meat mostly prepared and then finish in the smoker the next day.

      #18
      I just finished perusing the ChefSteps site for various time/temp results for sous vide short ribs. They claim (and demonstrate) that at higher temps the collagen contracts more before it melts which squeezes juices out of the muscle fibers resulting in a drier end product. Their 144F/48 hour cook looked to be a good compromise to me. Not at all pink, very juicy and very tender! Chuck wouldn't normally have quite as much fat as short ribs but still might be a good place to start? Good luck!

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      • Hugh
        Hugh commented
        Editing a comment
        Gawd, I'm going to have 30 pounds of cooked chuck in my freezer when this is over. Thanks HorseDoctor.

      • EdF
        EdF commented
        Editing a comment
        Party Time!

      • binarypaladin
        binarypaladin commented
        Editing a comment
        Incidentally, I JUST did that with short ribs last weekend and it turned out pretty nicely. (Other than the fact that I think the ribs were like 1/3 meat to fat, haha.)

      #19
      A few folks suggested taking it up to 185 or better internal when smoking after the sous vide bath to get past the stall. I'm kind of intrigued by that idea. Thoughts?

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      • HorseDoctor
        HorseDoctor commented
        Editing a comment
        Correct! No need to do that.It is already "cooked". No need to take it higher than your SV temp. You are just drying it out if you do. You just want to add some smoke/bark.
        Last edited by HorseDoctor; August 27, 2017, 12:05 PM. Reason: typo

      • binarypaladin
        binarypaladin commented
        Editing a comment
        This is still a matter of time. If it was in SV for an hour 185ºF, it's probably going to need time at a higher temperature to continue the breakdown. Low and slow, even in SV is generally the way to go but if you gotta get food out at a moment's notice, you have to play with suboptimal options.

      • Hugh
        Hugh commented
        Editing a comment
        That makes sense binarypaladin. Thx

      #20
      Click image for larger version

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      I got the photo above when I googled Norm King. Found a website with an article on brisket - sans vide (naked) and sous-B-Q all in stop!



      Good reading.

      He says size don't matter. So much for my theory. Big or small, time varies slightly.

      He used 129 degrees for 36 hours.

      He used a cold shock

      Finished in oven or smoker at 350 degrees for 1 hour.

      This is where I"m lost with SV, why isn't the brisket above red if it's cooked to medium rare? Gawd it looks good.

      Comment


      • Potkettleblack
        Potkettleblack commented
        Editing a comment
        Sans Vide means he cooked it without a vacuum seal. He cooks nearly everything nekkid. Nekkid is with the item, in the bag, nothing else in the bag.

      • EdF
        EdF commented
        Editing a comment
        Interesting site!

      • TheCountofQ
        TheCountofQ commented
        Editing a comment
        Yep. Very interesting, EdF . I should have included your name in the extremely accomplished & helpful resources section earlier. My bad... Love the new avatar!!

      #21
      Potkettleblack - give us the readers digest version. What are the pro's and con's of sans vide?

      Comment


      • Potkettleblack
        Potkettleblack commented
        Editing a comment
        It's good for things that emit gas, or that produce botulinum spores at SV temps.

        On the con side, with open bags you have to keep the top out of the water. Not so great for lt storage.

      #22
      Collagen breaks down at different rates at different temperatures but will eventually break down.

      General rule is 165F or higher for breakdown but that is for convential methods. We have curves for how meat fibers behave at different temps (for example at 145 beef fibers squeeze out almost all moisture) and we have curves for Pasteurization (165 for 5 seconds is like 150 for 5 minutes is like 130 for 2.5 hours) but I haven't seen anyone publish time-temp curves for collagen conversion to gelatin, which is very important if you want to cook long enough to make the meat safe at chosen temperature (known) and want to stop short of a drying tempturature (known) but still convert the collagen to gelatin. If this curve was known you could definitively optimize your cook to what you are cooking.

      Since I don't have the collagen data my plan is usually to go 48 to 72 hours at 130F to both pasteurize and break down some collagen, then ice cool and later sear over the highest heat I can obtain. Works well for things like boneless short ribs and other tough cuts. However if the meat is lean and has no collagen (tenderloin) you better keep the time and temps as low as possible to avoid overcooking. (If not too thick 130 for 3 hours is not a bad option or if going higher cook just long enough to make it safe to eat or short enough that it's safe because it's a steak and you are willing to trust that the interior is okay.)

      Note that times I quote above for safety are from the time at temp at that location in the meat. If you have a thick steak or brisket you can only start the timer when the center hits the pasteurization temp. (Lots of online calculators that can run this for you )
      Last edited by Polarbear777; September 1, 2017, 08:12 PM.

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