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No Oil In Marinades

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  • Medusa
    commented on 's reply
    I think "waking up the spices is exactly" what the article from ATK is talking about. Haven't tried heating oil yet, but do have a pork loin that I'll sprinkle some water on before rubbing.

  • W.A.
    replied
    I used to have my own molecular biology lab. To get big molecules in like proteins and DNA you really had to microinject it, use viruses, or poke holes in the cell membranes like a shotgun might do. Another thing is meat is from a dead animal. Cells no longer have the energy/ability to keep things from traveling down their concentration gradients. Water flows freely across. If the membranes are damaged enough, bigger things can flow right in, and out.

    Leave a comment:


  • PitmasterCowboy
    replied
    Thought that might be the case. As oil molecules are larger and therefore sit's on the outside of the meat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr ROK
    commented on 's reply
    Your logic would work if the flavor molecules were as small as water molecules, but from everything I've read from MH, the flavor molecules are too large to pass through the cell membrane.

  • Papa Bob
    commented on 's reply
    Yea I thought the same thing lol but I have been under the impression buy Dr. blonder and other research (I only say that to sound smart like the rest of you all) that salt molecules are the only ones that get small enough to penetrate the cell wall of most proteins fish not included

  • PitmasterCowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by W.A. View Post
    Its got me thinking. Meat is muscle. Muscle is made up from very long cells. Cells are bags filled with water (cytosol), proteins, and lipid (fat) membrane organelles. Cells are surrounded by phospholipid membranes, with proteins and sugars interspersed. Also, cells sit in a matrix of varous moelcules in water. Someone (not me) should make a molecular model of this....
    Further to the biology of cellular construction, water is used across the cell membrane against their concentration gradients, for a number of reasons one is to maintain a neutral Ph (alkaline/acidic). When you brine (acidic) meat the sodium (salt) draws more water from the cells (osmosis) in reaction to the imbalance in Ph (neutral-7), that is why a water based injection (alkaline) would be more appropriate after brining as the water transfer would work in the opposite direction.

    So it would make sense that a paste with water as it's binding medium would allow the flavour molecules to attach themselves to the water molecules and pass thru the cellular membrane increasing the flavour profile in the meat and also retaining moisture during cooking and relaxed distribution will resting. External rubs and marinades would only be suitable if they are an alkaline mixture and that the crust/bark is kept moist with a mob or spritz during the first few hours of smoking.
    Please don't take this as scientifically accurate just trying to apply something I learnt at school for once! But appears sound logic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerod Broussard
    commented on 's reply
    "Wake up a little spicey, Well, what are we gonna tell your mama? What are we gonna tell your pa? What are we gonna tell the other spices when they say ooh-la-la," Wake up little spicey, wake up little spicey....

    Loooong day work, read this this morning EARLY....hence the long day....

  • OGMrWhite
    replied
    What about oil extraction from dry herbs (such as in S&G rub)? Do you still stand by using an oil prior to dry herbs to bring out their natural oils?

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  • CurlingDog
    replied
    do it! I need a new avatar...

    Leave a comment:


  • W.A.
    replied
    Its got me thinking. Meat is muscle. Muscle is made up from very long cells. Cells are bags filled with water (cytosol), proteins, and lipid (fat) membrane organelles. Cells are surrounded by phospholipid membranes, with proteins and sugars interspersed. Also, cells sit in a matrix of varous moelcules in water. Someone (not me) should make a molecular model of this....

    Leave a comment:


  • Ernest
    replied
    But spices do not penetrate neither.
    When I use oil in marinades I'm not looking for it to penetrate, I want it to waken up the spices.
    When I have time I place the spices in oil and warm that mess. Use the "infused" oil in marinades.

    Leave a comment:


  • Medusa
    replied
    All of this is very interesting. I think I'll try sprinkling some water as discussed above prior to the rubbing ribs, briskets, etc. I need to do more reading of MH's article and the associated discussion. For now, I'll throw this out... from America's Test Kitchen.

    Keep in mind they are talking about dissolving spices, not penetrating meat. I'll definitely go with MH's experiments here, and mebbe conduct some of my own - LOL!

    -- Ed

    While developing the recipe for Chicken alla Diavola, we were curious as to why we weren't able to extract much flavor from either ground black pepper or red pepper flakes when they were added to a brine or room-temperature marinade. We were further intrigued when their flavor blossomed, becoming deep and fragrant, after being briefly steeped in warm oil. After some research, we learned that it's simply a matter of solubility.

    The essential oils in both black pepper and red pepper flakes are oil-soluble as opposed to water-soluble. This means that they dissolve in oil rather than water. As they dissolve, their flavorful essential oils are released from a solid state into solution form, where they mix and interact, thereby producing a more complex flavor. Like most substances, these essential oils dissolve faster and to a greater extent in a hot solvent (in this case, olive oil) than in a cold solvent.

    However, if the oil is too hot, the spices can scorch. We prepared five batches of marinade, bringing them to temperatures of 150, 200, 250, 300, and 400 degrees. The differences were dramatic. The 150-degree batch tasted flat and boring, while the marinades brought to 250, 300, and 400 degrees tasted increasingly burnt. When heated to 200 degrees, however, the marinade tasted perfectly spicy and well rounded.

    Other oil-soluble spices include:

    Allspice
    Almond oil
    Anise Seed
    Celery Seed
    Cumin
    Nutmeg oil
    Cinnamon
    Cassia
    Sassafras
    Ginger
    Basil
    Bay Leaf
    Sage
    Lemongrass
    Oregano
    Peppermint
    Rosemary
    Thyme
    Clove
    Lavender
    Marjoram
    Mint
    Black pepper
    Caraway oil
    Cardamom seed oil
    Coriander


    Leave a comment:


  • Spinaker
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks Meathead, headed there now.

  • Meathead
    commented on 's reply
    Certainly time for deeper investigation. As I say "Don't skip the booze. It helps penetrate, and even if you're a teetotaler, don't worry, there isn't any measurable alcohol in the meat. Yes, I know alcohol can dry meat out, but I just think it works well in this case. If you must skip it, use apple juice or water, but booze is better." What I think happens is the booze is tenderizing or maybe opening pores? In either case, it doesn't penetrate very far.

  • Meathead
    commented on 's reply
    Water dissolves spices and herbs, but neither the spices or herbs or water penetrate. As I explain, marinades only get into cracks and pores and penetrate very little. they are really a surface treatment. Click my link and read the article.

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