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Question about minimum IT poultry for serving

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    Question about minimum IT poultry for serving

    I am a little confused on the information on this site. Most of the articles explain the USDA uses 165 as the safe IT because it kills harmful bacteria instantly, but that lower temperatures will also do the trick if given more time.

    Like here for example on the turkey article. In the first paragraph meathead tells us 155 is best for white meat, but the risk is too great, and then in the very next paragraph he says 145 is safe if given only 4 minutes at that temp, and 155 if given only 23 seconds. Simply the carry over would go on for much longer than 23 seconds. What's the risk?

    " Dark meat has about 9% fat, 33% more than white meat, so it tastes and feels best at about 170°F. White meat is very lean, about 6%, and it dries out quickly if it is overcooked. It is at its best texture and juiciness at about 155°F, but that's 10°F below the USDA recommendation and the risk is too great at that temp. So I will advise you to cook it to 160°F and let the temp rise to 165°F while it moves from cooker to carving. More on this below.
    USDA wants to keep things simple for us in order to keep us safe. Admirable! What USDA doesn't tell you is that microbes start croaking at about 130°F. The hotter the food gets, the faster the pathogens die. You can pasteurize your turkey at 130°F in 2 hours or at 165°F in 2 seconds, hence the USDA recommended minimum of 165°F. What the USDA doesn't tell you is that you can kill them all if you heat the bird to 160°F for 7 seconds, 155°F for 23 seconds, or 145°F for about 4 minutes."

    But then, he goes on to caution multiple times to make sure you hit 165 so you dont make everyone sick. Why? Especially on a turkey where it is almost guaranteed to had spent much more time than a mere 4 minutes at 145 if it is 155, and if it is 155 then in another 23 seconds it's safe anyway. In fact, all of the articles, especially those dealing with birds seem to have this contradiction.

    I understand the liability standpoint, but it still seems like an odd contradiction to inform people that the USDA guidelines are oversimplified, and then hold them up as the bar to meet.
    Last edited by CoryS; December 10, 2015, 03:20 PM.

    #2
    The bar that Meathead holds up is the one that provides the SAFEST product. You ask what the risk is. The risk is death when it comes to food safety. And there is no liability issue.

    The temp-times help explain WHY the USDA recommends 165. I was completing a food manager's certification course and the man next to me had no idea why they were showing times next to the temps. And this was his second time taking the course.

    The oversimplification is needed since accurate thermometers is not the norm in most kitchens. I handed out food safety information one weekend and lots of people didn't even have a food thermometer at all. Which is pretty scary with poultry.

    The "almost guarantee" you mention is still not 100%. Especially when you factor in inaccurate thermometers.

    Comment


      #3
      When you are in the business of telling people how to cook something, you end up having to ere on the side of caution. There are multiple factors at play in using heat to render food safe. You've got temperature, time, desiccants like salt or sugar, and pressure that all play a part. On top of that there is both lethality of the bacteria as well as the temperature at which the toxins produced by that bacteria are inactivated. It's messy.
      Last edited by TheMeatGuyJapan; December 10, 2015, 06:01 PM.

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        #4
        I use this article from the USDA Food & Safety inspection service. In it you'll notice each chart going downward is for poultry with increasing fat content, higher fat meat taking slightly longer to pasteurize. I use the very bottom chart to be on the safe side. Breast meat would be safe at 155F if it's held there 1.3 minutes, 160 if it's there for 27 seconds, or 165 for a couple seconds, or virtually 'instant kill'. Like the others have said, in an article for the public we want to err on the side of safety. We don't want readers sick or worse.

        Like Meathead says bacteria and such begin croaking at ~130F, albeit slowly, and continue up to 165. They croak faster the higher the temp. Think of it as ice cubes in a tray. In a 35 degree fridge they're melting, but very slowly. On your counter at 72, much faster. How long until all the ice cubes melt? Well, the time it takes depends on the ice cubes' surrounding temp, it might take an hour in your fridge (clueless on that actually, but for the sake of conversation...) and 15 mins on your counter. Same as microbes in meat. USDA says all the 'ice cubes on your kitchen counter' have melted by the time the meat hits 165. Breast meat at 155 is AWESOMELY juicy. And according to the pros at the USDA, whose job it is to study this sort of thing, as long as the meat is there for 80 seconds it's safe. But, breast meat has little fat, therefore it would likely be "safe" with less time...but who's counting. However, like Jerod says how many people really have pro-grade thermometers like the Thermapen to test their meat temp? I bet we're a small percentage of all humans cooking meat. So 165 it is, to be safe.
        Last edited by Huskee; December 10, 2015, 11:54 PM.

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          #5
          Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to check back. Thank you for the input. It pretty much confirmed my thoughts on it, although if someone has an inaccurate thermometer then you might as well tell them to pull it at 200 degrees...because there is no telling how far it's off.

          What had sparked my curiosity on this is I have started sous vide cooking recently, and had my first medium cooked chicken breast not long before posting this. I have always hated chicken breast, but this one came out incredible. What is amusing is when you figure it had been held at that temp for 6 hours, it was far safer than anything you pull off at 165 when you consider that you may have an odd under cooked pocket somewhere in there. However, if I ever tried to serve that to someone they would be horrified. The general public has been so hardlined on the black and white side of food safety, even by enthusiast sites like this one (to a less degree)

          Comment


            #6
            Not sure if that medium temp for 6 hours is far safer when 165 reduces 10,000,000-fold.

            Unless you got something that has been sitting at room temp for a couple years.

            I agree, me like sous vide.

            I'm doing a chicken wing recipe this week, sous vide them fried, and part of a sirloin tip roast Saturday.

            Comment


              #7
              Every time I've cooked a bird to 165 internal it has come out really moist and juicy. IMHO there is absolutely no reason to try and get cute with poultry cooking temps. Take it to 165.

              Comment


                #8
                To add to (er, confuse) this discussion, I ran into this while doing sous vide research the other day: http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/07/t...en-breast.html.

                None less than Kenji is declaring 140F to be adequate GIVEN ENOUGH TIME AT TEMPERATURE. I will try 145F soon and I will overdo the time in the water bath.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I myself will never do chicken breasts that low simply because I don't care for that texture. My HOT cooked taken to 165 breasts are more than juicy.

                  I love the low sous vide temps for tougher beef cuts.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm definitely in the 165 (white), 175 (dark) poultry meat camp. As Jerod says (paraphrased), cook'em HOT for texture and for crispy skin. That said, this topic just reminded me of a funny scene from the movie Jekyll and Hyde Together Again in which Hyde goes into a sushi bar and orders the chicken sushi ... Note to self: must check Netflix later this evening ...

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