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How to make sourdough bread...

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    scottranda ...
    "I'm eager to learn. Call me grasshopper. Thanks for allowing me to ask so many questions. So, I noticed in your description, you skipped letting it bulk ferment for 3-4 hours, then do final shaping and proofing (finger dent test). You call it bulk ferment for it to rise only one hour then goes straight in the oven/Kamado. So, would I also skip the 3-4 hour bulk ferment that I normally do with regular sourdough? Or, because you're speeding up the process with instant yeast, you don't need that extra fermenting time?"

    We like having new members to our bread baking club. Questions are welcome and encouraged. I was you 5 years ago on another website. You learn the science and technique of bread making incrementally, little bits and pieces at a time... for forever. Even my mentor, Chef Jacob, will not claim to be an expert, because there's always something else to learn.

    Bulk fermentation times are determined by how much yeast/starter you added to your recipe/formula. Time is not relevant, increase in mass is the indicator. Some dough you want the dough to double in mass, some you want it to triple in mass. If you use lots of yeast/Starter it doesn't take very long to double in mass, especially if your ambient temperature is over 70°.

    Finger dent test... for Ciabatta bread there is no need for the finger dent test. It's all about increase in mass. After you portion your bulk fermented dough and final shape it, put it in your couche, cover it with a damp towel and allow the final rise to get puffy. It doesn't need to double in mass again. Ciabatta dough will have a LOT of oven spring.

    If i were you... to learn the techniques of making ciabatta dough and how to handle a real high hydration dough, I would make the 4 hour high yeast recipe a few times. Just crank out a few loaves to learn the process and techniques. Once you're comfortable with the process and techniques, then slow everything down and make better Ciabatta bread. Decrease the yeast quantity, add a preferment, then after getting comfortable with the preferment, then add the overnight delayed fermentation process after the preferment. Now... we've moved in to real honest to goodness Artisan bread making. That's my thing... I like slowing everything down. I like making kick ass bread that most people have never had the pleasure to taste.😎
    Last edited by Breadhead; October 30, 2016, 07:54 PM.

    Comment


      Alright bread-lovers! I made a spreadsheet on the baker's percentage with different formulas because I'm really lazy when it comes to computing the formula. I have the basic straight-forward spreadsheet, and another spreadsheet if you want to do the pre-ferment process. If you want it, PM me your email address, and I'll email it to you. Unfortunately, AR website won't allow me to post excel files.

      When you get it, if you have any suggestions, please let me know!

      Comment


        Ciabatta bread... the fast and easy version.

        formula:

        800g bread flour
        660g water =82.5% hydration
        7g Instant yeast
        20g olive oil
        16g salt

        fast... mixed in the KA mixer in 10 minutes after a 30 minutes autolyse. Then I put the dough in my handy rectangle shaped bulk ferment container. I took about 2 hours to double in mass. Then I took it of the container and portioned into 3 pieces of dough to do my shaping. I placed the 3 pieces of dough in my couche for final proofing while I preheated the BGE. When the pizza stone was at 500° it was time to bake some Ciabatta bread.👍

        I put my silicone baking matt on my pizza peel and then used my transfer board to move the final proofed dough over to the peel. On the the BGE they went. I baked the loaves at 550° for about 25 minutes.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Breadhead; October 31, 2016, 07:24 PM.

        Comment


        • Breadhead
          Breadhead commented
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          Oops... I'll add the yeast.🙀
          Last edited by Breadhead; October 31, 2016, 09:57 PM.

        • Thunder77
          Thunder77 commented
          Editing a comment
          Very nice looking bread! 👍

        • gwschenk
          gwschenk commented
          Editing a comment
          Very nice work.

        Today's bread journey.

        Pre-fermented French bread and dinner rolls...

        Formula:
        1000g bread flour
        660g water
        3g instant yeast
        20g salt
        2 eggs, for the egg wash.

        Pre-ferment:
        500g bread flour
        500g water
        1g instant yeast
        I mixed it together with my Danish dough hook and left it on the counter for 16 hours at room temper, about 70°.

        Final dough:
        500g bread flour
        160g water
        2g instant yeast
        20grams salt - added after a 30 minute autolyse.
        All of the preferment.

        I put the final dough in my KA mixing bowl and used my dough hook to mix it and knead it. After it passed the window pane test I put the dough in my bulk fermentation container and let it double in mass.

        I portioned the dough into 10-90g dinner rolls and 2-369g loaves. I shaped the dinner rolls 2 different ways and then shaped the loaves. I put the rolls on a sheet pan that I have a snap on plastic cover for to final proof them. I put the loaves in my couche that I covered with rice flour to final proof while I pre-heated the BGE to 450°.

        Right before putting my dough on the pizza stone I put just egg whites on the long dinner rolls and 1 loaf of bread. I used just the egg yoke with just a little water in it on the round dinner rolls and the darker/shinier loaf of bread. Then I scored everything.

        Time to bake some bread.😎 everything came out as planned.👍
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • Thunder77
          Thunder77 commented
          Editing a comment
          Pure awesomeness!

        A question for all: I have been having not great results with sourdough lately. I noted that you all putting about half the total flour in your preferment. I was putting most or all of mine in. Could this have affected my final proof and oven spring? I will try my next preferment with 1/2 the flour in the recipe, and see what happens.

        Comment


          Originally posted by jgjeske1 View Post
          A question for all: I have been having not great results with sourdough lately. I noted that you all putting about half the total flour in your preferment. I was putting most or all of mine in. Could this have affected my final proof and oven spring? I will try my next preferment with 1/2 the flour in the recipe, and see what happens.
          I've used 80% weight of the flour in a preferment before, its fine. However when you expose that much of the flour to the starter for that long it can gobble lots of the natural sugar from your flour. If you use 0.5% of the weight of the flour of diastic malt power that will replace the sugar and help with the rise and crust color. I also will add 2g of instant yeast to the final dough mixture sometimes after a 14/16 hour preferment to give it a boost in the bulk fermenting stage.

          I really think a 50% preferment is best. Just make sure your starter is very active before using such a small quantity. You really don't need diastic malt power or instant yeast. I've just been experimenting with both lately to see if I notice any difference.

          Comment


          • Thunder77
            Thunder77 commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks. I am going to do a 50% preferment next time my starter is ready.

          Now that you all know how to make sourdough bread... use the same dough and learn to shape your dough into a baguette. It takes some practice but it's fun learning new shapes.

          If you want to make baguettes you will need to buy a couche though. It's a very handy tool to have. https://www.amazon.com/BrotformDotCo...ag=amazi0a8-20

          You will also need a transfer board to move your dough around after its final shaped. Here's a video of the shaping techniques for a baguette. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OI-WstoakmQ. Notice the couche and transfer board he uses.

          Transfer boards are not expensive... https://www.amazon.com/Breadtopia-Ba...ag=amazi0a8-20
          Last edited by Breadhead; November 4, 2016, 03:25 PM.

          Comment


            I think I get a B+ on this one. What say you? I got some oven spring, and the final product was nice and crisp on the outside, and soft and moist inside. And it is gone! I know I still have some work to do, but I am getting there. Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2973.JPG Views:	1 Size:	1.40 MB ID:	236937Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2972.JPG Views:	1 Size:	1.86 MB ID:	236936
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Thunder77; November 4, 2016, 10:46 PM.

            Comment


            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
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              An A grade is when that crumb is more open and airy. An A+ is when the crumb is more open and airy and it's shaped more like a basketball after the baking process. That requires perfect final shaping, tight, tight, tight and perfect final proofing, the poke test. Getting an A+ is a rare occurrence.

            • RonB
              RonB commented
              Editing a comment
              That looks very good to me.

            • Thunder77
              Thunder77 commented
              Editing a comment
              And I have moved up to 70% hydration dough. I think the preferment with only 50% of the total flour is the way to go. I also switched to the one-handed slap and fold method. Works better for me.

            Today's bread journey... took a couple of days.😎

            French baguettes and dinner rolls... done low and slow.

            French bread is usually done as a 60% to 66% hydration dough. I decided I wanted a softer crumb and get a more crisp crust so I decided I would go with a 70% hydration dough and slow everything down as much as possible... only because I could.

            With this project I decide I would make a perfect dough... low and slow.👍

            I did a 50% preferment with just a pinch of yeast... just what I could hold between my index finger and my thumb. Then I let it ferment on the counter top for 16 hours. I added the remaining ingredients and mixed the final dough. Once the dough passed the window pane test... I put it in my final proofing vessel and let it rise to 50% of what it should and then put it in the refrigerator overnight, to delay the fermentation process even more.👍

            Then today I took it out of the fridge and let the bulk fermentation process continue... after 90 minutes I gave the dough a fold, all 4 directions, and let it continue to rise.

            Then... I portioned the dough into 3-300g pieces and 7-100g pieces and shaped them into 3 baguettes and 7 dinner rolls.

            The formula:
            1000g bread flour
            700g water
            20g salt
            a pinch of instant yeast

            The preferment:
            500g bread flour
            500g water
            a pinch of instant yeast
            I mixed it together with my Danish dough hook and covered it with a shower cap and let it ferment on the counter top at 70° ambient temperature for 16 hours.

            The final dough mix:
            500g bread flour
            200g water
            All of the preferment
            20g salt... after a 30 minute autolyse

            I mixed the dough until I got a nice window pane test and then transferred it to my proofing container. I let it rise half way on the counter top at room temperature and then put it in the refrigerator overnight. Today I took it out of the fridge and let it finish its rise and come to room temperature, giving it a final stretch & fold at the half way point. When it had doubled in mass I took it out of my proofing vessel, portioned it and pre-shaped it. I rested the dough for 20 minutes and then did the final shaping.

            When the final shaping was complete I pre-heated the BGE which I like to take about an hour to do to get all of the ceramics heated up to produce lots of radiant heat, to complement the convection heat I get by leaving my top vent off and controlling the baking temperature with my bottom vent... to replicate a brick oven effect.👍

            Low & slow is the same for BBQ and Bread... you can't beat it.👍

            All came out exactly as planned...👌
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              The only reason I can't use the SS bowl for steam on this cook is because the bowl is to big to fit. It hits the the heat prong that sticks out on the cooker.

            • scottranda
              scottranda commented
              Editing a comment
              So, do you spritz it with water?

            • Breadhead
              Breadhead commented
              Editing a comment
              If it's a low hydration dough and I can't use the SS bowl I spray it with water or I use a water pan below the grate. If it's 75% hydration dough or higher... you don't need the steam, the water in the dough will provide the steam.
              Last edited by Breadhead; November 13, 2016, 01:56 AM.

            Yesterday, I decided to break my 3-month old (it seems longer) tradition of baking nothing but sourdough bread. Instead, I went with Ken Forkish's 75% hydration White Bread with Poolish ... and actually followed his formula this time.

            The night before at about 9 pm, I prepared a 500g Poolish using only KAF bread flour, water, and about 1/16 tsp. dried instant yeast then left it on the countertop at room temperature overnight. The next morning at 10:30 , I added an additional 250g bread flour, 125g water, 11g fine sea salt, and 3/8 tsp dried instant yeast. Bulk fermentation was complete after just over 2 hours and after shaping, proofing took just over another hour. Things move fast here at high altitude. The boule was baked (seam side up) covered in the DO for 30 minutes followed by 20 more minutes uncovered ... all at 475 deg. F.

            The dough handled much more easily that the same formula using my usual sourdough poolish. Oven spring was excellent and the resulting crumb was light, airy, and moist. The crust was thin and crisp. As promised by Mr. Forkish, the taste was almost "buttery" ... so much so that my wife immediately requested another loaf "real soon".

            Click image for larger version  Name:	Loaf 20161104-1.jpg Views:	1 Size:	1.80 MB ID:	237043Click image for larger version  Name:	Loaf 20161104-2.jpg Views:	1 Size:	1.93 MB ID:	237044Click image for larger version  Name:	Loaf 20161104-4.jpg Views:	1 Size:	4.65 MB ID:	237045
            Last edited by MBMorgan; November 5, 2016, 01:14 PM.

            Comment


            • Mr. Bones
              Mr. Bones commented
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              Beautiful Job, @Mbmorgan!
              Happy wife=Happy life!!!

            • RonB
              RonB commented
              Editing a comment
              That's a great looking boule MBMorgan. I'd request another one too.

            • Huskee
              Huskee commented
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              REALLY nice pictures!

            Another quick question: do you treat rolled oats the same way as flour in the hydration formula? I have a recipe for oatmeal bread that I want to convert to the formula.
            Last edited by Thunder77; November 5, 2016, 12:42 PM. Reason: typo

            Comment


              Originally posted by jgjeske1 View Post
              Another quick question: do you treat rolled oats the same way as flour in the hydration formula? I have a recipe for oatmeal bread that I want to convert to the formula.
              Over on thefreshloaf.com site there is a discussion about this very question. The most sensible suggestion is the one where you consider "total cereal" when calculating hydration. Flour and oats are both technically cereals so I'd start by using their combined weights to represent 100%. I don't know how rolled oats absorb water compared to flour but that could be a factor in deciding how you might need to increase or decrease hydration to get the results you want (like upping hydration to account for the fact that WW flour will absorb more water than white).

              I have a recipe for a basic sandwich loaf that uses rolled oats that I'm trying to play around with, but to do some calculations I want to figure out what my starting hydration is. If the recipe has about 3cups of flour and 1 cup of oats, how do I calculate the hydration? I can weigh them at home (I'm not there right now, so I'm not sure how much the oats weigh), but I'm pretty sure I was using 15.5oz of flour and 10oz milk. So if I've read other things correctly, should I be assuming milk is 90% water?

              Comment


              • Thunder77
                Thunder77 commented
                Editing a comment
                Thanks!

              • Breadhead
                Breadhead commented
                Editing a comment
                Thefreshloaf is a great website.👍

              • RonB
                RonB commented
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                Thunder77 - If I add other stuff to a dough, I normally soak whatever so that I don't have to change the formula. Make sure you drain the additive well before adding to the dough

              Today's bread fun...😎

              French baguettes & dinner rolls

              Formula:
              1000g flour 50% bread flour + 50% AP flour
              600g water
              20g salt
              2g instant yeast

              Preferment:
              500g bread flour
              500g water
              2g instant yeast

              I mixed it and let it ferment for 16 hours

              Final dough:
              All of the preferment
              500g AP flour
              100g water - 60% hydration total
              20g salt - added after a 30 minute autolyse.

              I used my KA mixer to combine all of the dough to a shaggy mass and autolysed it. Then I added the salt and kneaded it in the KA mixing bowl until I got a good window pane test. I transferred the dough to my bulk fermentation container and did 3 folds 20 minutes apart. Once the dough had doubled in mass I portioned it into 3-310g and 6-100g pieces and pre shaped them into 3 baguettes and 6 dinner rolls. I let them bench rest for 20 minutes and did the final shaping.

              I'm working on my baguette skills mostly. They say that's the most difficult loaves to perfect. I'm not there yet but they keep getting better with each attempt. I reduced the hydration and used a combination of APF & BF with the intent of getting a crispier crust. That worked nicely.
              Attached Files

              Comment


                I used my linen banneton liner last week for the [attempted] ciabatta. It was so sticky, and stuck to the liner. How do I clean that liner?

                Comment


                  Originally posted by scottranda View Post
                  I used my linen banneton liner last week for the [attempted] ciabatta. It was so sticky, and stuck to the liner. How do I clean that liner?
                  I prefer to peel it off while it's still wet. I put some flour on it and try to rub into a small ball. Once it's dry just scrape it off with a knife.

                  When putting a real sticky dough in a banneton or couche use lots of rice flour. I use a small brush to remove the flour from the surface of my dough before putting it in the oven though.

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